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Viewing topic "Flash Memory only for loading?"

   
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Posted on: August 03, 2010 @ 02:01 AM
radore
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This is an extract from the Easy Sounds Motif News Guide:

“The Flash Memory is only for storing User Waveforms and Samples. The editing of User Waveforms and Samples is always done in the SDRAM.”

If I understand correctly you’ll have to move the samples back and forth the Flash and the RAM in order to edit them?

I see why there is the built-in 128 MB RAM otherwise there would have been two kinds of expansion boards: Flash and RAM

And that way there is only one type - Flash.

Ok,Ok I admit, I’m starting to like the keyboard already :)

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Posted on: August 03, 2010 @ 03:00 AM
Peter Krischker
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Normally samples will be stored in the Flash Memory after the final edits made in the INTEGRATED SAMPLING. While the sampling processing the samples are available in the SDRAM. You can copy the edited samples directly from SDRAM to Flash Memory (INTEGRATED SAMPLING - Job) or you can save them to USB-Device and load them to Flash Memory after that.

If you want to edit samples which are already available in the Flash Memory (which will be the exception) you can load the samples again to SDRAM and make new edits in the INTEGRATED SAMPLING Mode.

Yes, there are not two kinds of expansions.
The SDRAM is built-in sample memory (128 MB). Only the flash memory expansion boards are expansions for storing user waveforms and samples.

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Posted on: August 03, 2010 @ 03:08 AM
radore
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Thanks, Peter!

What about the loading times from SDRAM to the Flash and vise versa?

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Posted on: August 03, 2010 @ 03:24 AM
Peter Krischker
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Sorry, but in this moment I have no chance to check that.

As far as I remember to copy samples from SDRAM to Flash Memory needs the same time as loading samples from USB. But maybe I’m wrong.

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Posted on: August 03, 2010 @ 05:59 AM
VanZea
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So on the XF you can’t create soundsets larger than 128mb, but you can load them (to flash). Correct?

So there still something you need the XS for?

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Posted on: August 03, 2010 @ 07:04 AM
Jote
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VanZea - 03 August 2010 05:59 AM

So on the XF you can’t create soundsets larger than 128mb, but you can load them (to flash). Correct?

No

According to what PK wrote you wouldn’t be able to edit a sample bigger than 128MB

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Posted on: August 03, 2010 @ 08:40 AM
Peter Krischker
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Jote, of course you are right.
The limitation of 128 MB is only related to editing or recording samples.
The limitation of a sample based soundset only depends on the size of the installed flash memoy.
If 2 GB are installed you can create soundsets with samples up to 2GB size.

Maybe there is an unclear understanding of Flash Memory.
The samples on the Flash Memory Expansion Module can immediately be called up as a Waveform.
Please see topic “Motif XF Answers” (Sampling Mode).
Yamaha_US wrote: “Loading to Flash is more like ‘burning” a ROM, in that once it is loaded once it remains in memory on power down.  It is always there just like the internal Rom sounds until you decide to delete and replace it.”
That means: You can use the User Waveforms stored in the Flash Memory same way you use the Preset Waveforms stored in the Wave-ROM.
Soundsets can use all User Waveforms and Samples of the Flash Memory. Additional you can even use User Waveforms and Samples loaded to the SDRAM.

Peter

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Posted on: August 03, 2010 @ 09:41 PM
NickYu
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I can’t understand why YAMAHA removed DIMM slots in XF (just like I don’t understand why they removed PLG and BC3 in XS). Leave them there, they cost less than a dollar. Also I think a workstation should be capable of handling some audio tracks, Fantom G did a good job, in XF, I can’t see any improvemnet in this field

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Posted on: August 04, 2010 @ 07:30 AM
shakil
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Yes Fantom-G has audio track… but I am not sure if they did a good job at it.  I don’t know if you already have a Fantom-G, but don’t get so excited about the audio tracks in Fantom-G.  The audio tracks are RAM based samples, can’t cut/paste, slice.... so there is a lot of room for improvement.  But, the best feature on Fantom-G audio tracks and samples is................ auto-time stretch.  The audio tracks change tempo automatically… so MIDI and Audio remain in sync when you change tempo (not realtime).

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Posted on: August 04, 2010 @ 03:40 PM
WesEXer
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NickYu - 03 August 2010 09:41 PM

I can’t understand why YAMAHA removed DIMM slots in XF (just like I don’t understand why they removed PLG and BC3 in XS). Leave them there, they cost less than a dollar. Also I think a workstation should be capable of handling some audio tracks, Fantom G did a good job, in XF, I can’t see any improvemnet in this field

I wonder too why they took out the RAM slots. It took me a bit to grow hip to that fact! Very good chance they took it out because of the memory addressing limitations of the machine. Most likely it’s a 32bit OS which AFAIK can only address up to 4GB of Memory. 2GB flash + 128MB Ram + 741 MB ROM = Just shy of 3GB already. Having the DIMMS still there could exceed that amount. Now whether the XF uses the same tables to address ALL the different types of Memory in one shot who knows, but that’s a possible scenario.

In all honesty, with the flash RAM, who’d want to bother with DIMMS? The only bummer is if you already HAD the RAM laying around to stuff in there!

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Posted on: August 04, 2010 @ 10:20 PM
miket156
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That’s a very good question West. I am assuming that 3rd party DIMMS are not as fast as the SDRAM that Yamaha installed at the factory, but that’s just speculation on my part.

Mike T.

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Posted on: August 05, 2010 @ 02:52 AM
Dreamflight
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Regarding the loading times of flash in the XF:

Yamaha_US - 01 August 2010 09:22 PM

To store a complete 1 GB of samples to Flash takes about 20 minutes ( the writing/erasing process is slower that RAM)

As you can see, loading into the flash takes about 2.5 times longer than loading into RAM. Yamaha’s view is that you only have to do this once ...

Yamaha_US - 01 August 2010 09:22 PM

but once this is done once you never have to do it again.  This key to understanding Flash. If you had a 512 MB file on the XS , it takes approximately 4 minutes to load.

... but (and this is worth considering if it applies to you) as time goes on you will find yourself accumulating waveform data you like. After a relatively short time, the unused space in the flash ROM is going to get less and less.

Supposing after 6 months you have a set of orchestral stuff, a set of samples choirs and a sample-based piano that you like. You add some of your own waveforms, and you end up with, say 256Mb unused in the flash ROM.

Now, every time you want to even audition a new soundbank that exceeds 256Mb you are going to have to save the flash ROM to USB, load in the new soundbank try out the new sample bank, and then decide which data you want to keep.

Once you have accumulated 2Gb of stuff in your flash ROM are you really going to bother auditioning new material? Given that it’ll take you in excess of 45 minutes just to save your data, load in the new samplebank (if it’s a big one) and then reload your original data?

This is a ‘worst case scenario’ I will admit, but then again spending well in excess of $4,000 is a serious business for many people.

The same people who are likely to use the flash ROMs to their full capacity are the same kind of people who are likely to want to do more than just fill 2Gb of space and then stop. They are going to want to keep adding to their sample collection.

I’m no sample-freak, but I know for a fact I have well in excess of 2Gb of sample data in my library.

And with loading times of 20 minutes for 1Gb, does this really seem like such a great leap forward?

Faster RAM loading times would have been a much, much more practical approach. If you could load sample data into RAM on the XS/F in the time it takes to read the data from USB, + a couple of seconds for internal processing, then you would be able to load 2Gb of sample data in a matter of 20 seconds or so.

2Gb of very slow flash ROM combined with the removal of DIMM memory will mean stagnation over time. Once you have that ROM filled, the pain of waiting while it grinds and grinds away for ages every time you want to load something new is going to be anything but inspiring.

This really, really wasn’t thought through properly in my humble opinion.

Don’t worry though, it’s got tap tempo (which will be coming for the XS anyway) and a whole load of extra waveforms in ROM (which was the big thing everyone was complaining about on the XS, right? .. oh, no ... errr wait ...)

Df.

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Posted on: August 05, 2010 @ 04:54 AM
Bad_Mister
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That’s what someone said about my iPod… once I fill it then what? Don’t know how many years I’ve owned it now, but fill it… I should live that long (lol). Cross that bridge when you get to it. 

And it should not be considered “load time” you are not doing it everyday, not even every month, maybe only once. You are ‘burning’ data into a semi permanent memory (you can change your mind later). You can actually, like any expansion option, keep a spare 512 for just such a prupose. Don’t be silly. If you are one of ‘those people’ then you know yourself.

I have to laugh everytime one of my friends is stressing over how much ‘memory’ to get - whether it is in a iPod type device or its RAM for their computer. And I don’t mean to laugh at them but it is human nature to think you need the maximum amount of RAM. How many folks out their bought the 64GB iPod and have filled it? There are people out there with a 160GB iPod with 40,000 songs - I don’t ever want to listen to 40,000 songs, lol.

How many people purchased a computer with 8GB RAM and don’t use the multi-tasking capability… they really don’t know how much it is, just that more is supposed to be better.

And the point about the money something costs taken out-of-context, you wind up spending money on things you enjoy doing. When you buy a CD player or an iPod do you factor in the cost of the 40,000 songs you plan to load? If you do, you’d never buy it - because you will scare yourself out of the purchase.

It comes down to how much you spend at once (doesn’t it?). You yourself say you have accummulated more than 2Gb of sample data in your library, the question is do you need to or even want to keep all of it resident in your instrument. And just how much did you spend (did you ‘accummulate’ that total?) lol most likely not something you know off the top of your head.

Another question out-of-the 355MB of WAVE ROM in your Motif XS, how much sits there that you never (ever) use. For all of us there are some sounds that do not float our boat, and that we never use (for each of us it is different). The thing about your FLASH MEMORY you will “spend” that room wisely - with items that you ACTUALLY want to keep.

If you have songs in your iPod that you don’t like and never play - you are a fool for keeping them in there, no?… after all ONE DAY you will actually fill it up.

Just some food for thought. And there are technical reasons why cheap off-the-shelf memory cannot be used for the purpose of this type of Flash Memory (any other thoughts are just, well, uninformed).

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Posted on: August 05, 2010 @ 05:13 AM
jan bruijn
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Bad Mister,

During reading your answer I had to smile. It is so true. The desire to more memory, more speed, more processing power, more voices, more arps, more whatever, is ridiculous. What is the point having all that, while you never live long enough to try out all the voices you already have collected or having inside your hardware

I can amagine when you do Video processing in HD quality you need a lot of memory space, high Power PC and Speed. LOL.

But for sound processing the demands are a little less demanding.

I want to end with, please stop wining about the features in the XF, start making music what you have and explore the hardware you already have and be surprised what it can do.

Jan

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Posted on: August 05, 2010 @ 05:32 AM
botega
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During reading your answer I had to smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlrdvzVuqNA

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Posted on: August 05, 2010 @ 05:35 AM
mmusic
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Jan, you are so right!!!

--------
What a circus!

I hear todays music become more and more minimal in arranging, often not much more as bass and drums and a little bit “Pling plong”, I hear on the music platforms in internet, what the users of these monster synths realy use, and so I ask decent:

What do you want with the 2000th synth voice, that is not very different to the known voices?

How many features are realy necessary?

I don´t see, that the music on this forum (mo songs) changed after the first Motif. I do not hear, that the sounds of the “old” Motif were less in quality. 

I read sometimes, what the users write in the forums:

What is the destination, I ask me, the synth or the music? Shure it is a fascinationg thing, to use the great and powerful Yamaha synths, but:

Let the music be the star!!! Ask yourself, what you realy need.

My opinion is: If I have an excellent Yamaha synth and wish more in sound or features, I buy another synth from may be, KORG, Roland...that has another sound structure and, may be, is more userfriendly too. 

mmusic

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