miket156 - 02 August 2010 01:29 PM

Well, West, you not only want an upgrade path you want it “on the cheap”.

Good luck with that.

Seriously man, it would be quick and dirty for you to sell your XS to someone that can’t afford a new XF and take that money, add what additional money you need to buy a new XF for yourself, and be done with it. In the last month I’ve read posts by players that “just bought an ES” which is now 2 generations old. So your XS is certainly a viable KB for somebody.

I believe the work that would be required to provide an upgrade path to the XF from the XS would be quite a bit, and what they would recoup by selling and having dealers install such an upgrade would be a lot more than Yamaha could justify, even if it could be done.

The profit margins on this equipment is not so high that they could be Santa Claus too.

Sometimes reality doesn’t sit well but it is what it is.



Mike T.

When I say “on the cheap”, I’m talking like $300. I’d bet even at that for simply the mainboard, there’s a profit for yamaha. There’s nothing santa claus about it other than it being a reasonable upgrade path for XS owners. And remember this is just a talking point on this scenario. It’s freakin awesome that XS owners will benefit form the XF lifecycle. I disagreee wholeheartedly about the cost of providing an upgrade path, because that cost would rest on us. If it’s just a mainboard swap, it’s a 30 minute procedure. I’ve seen what holds the mainboard in and know how hard it is to get to. It’s not. We’re talking about 10 screws maybe to open the case and maybe another 10 to free the motherboard.

To sell the XS (Which is about to PLUMMET in value) to buy an XF outright would end up costing at least double to triple the above figure. It simply doesn’t make sense, and IMO frankly isn’t worth it.

Yamaha_US - 02 August 2010 01:38 PM

To be honest, we seriously doubt that exchanging the main board of a Motif XS for an XF would be any cheaper than simply buying a new XF.

If you look at Ebay there are still very few used Motif XS for sale.  This moroning there was one Motif XS7 and the asking price was $1800. The price of a Motif XF7 will be about $$3099. So the main board, the cost of the services and the shipping fees to get it to a service center would need to be less than $1300 to make this at all viable ( you could sell your XS and buy an XF for $1300 outlay of cash) .  We doubt that would actually work financially as the cost of replacing the main board very expensive.

So you’re saying that the circuit board costs $900? Here’s how I figure from $1300. $100 to ship each way, and say $100 labor to swap the board. We’ll even throw in another $100 for misc costs.

There’s no way the XF would be in production if the one board cost was 1/3 of it’s MAP price.

I appreciate your reply, but that explanation doesn’t add up for me.

I don’t think XS prices will plummet now that the XF is here. Dealers with lots of new XSes in stock might drop their prices but I don’t expect used prices to be impacted much at all. In fact demand might actually increase and push used prices up!

I bought my ES6 for $1400 used in 2005 which was about 2/3 of a new one at the time. Today if I wanted a used XS6 the cheapest I’ve seen was about $1600, again 2/3 of new! Today I still see the ES6 in local want ads and eBay for $1000.

Sure, five years from now you might see a used $1000 XS6 but the price drop is not going to be rapid.

I can’t go along with the cost of an XF system board being only $300.00 There was a LOT of R&D;money that went into design, writing code, spec and mfg proprietary processors and then manufacturing the board itself. Its not the same as IBM clones that used off-the-shelf parts, Intel and other microprocessors, video cards made by companies that only made video cards, I/O boards, generic D-RAM that could be bought in quantity from companies that only make memory.

That market is completely different (and much cheaper) than what MI manufacturers are producing. They are making a completely different product for a much smaller market with a limited number of buyers. So if Yamaha says the system board sells for $900 (retail price) it doesn’t sound out of line.

They also have to inventory the items have a distribtion system which includes computers, software, and people to manage and support their parts/service.

The installation (if you want it to have a warranty) would have to be installed at a Yamaha dealer or service center or that has a tech(s) that is trained and knows what he’s doing.

Lets say that an upgrade can be done by a local Yamaha dealer. They might be able to charge 60 bucks for the installation, but they will have to make money on the system board too or it won’t be worth doing. In that sense its the same as bringing your car to a dealer or service center and having an exhaust system installed. They charge for the parts and the service.

At one time I thought that MI system boards where very expensive, but after thinking about it for quite awhile and drawing from the experience I had working for computer companies, it’s tough to low ball proprietary products with a very limited market and stay in business.

Anyway, Yamaha has already stated there will not be an upgrade path but they are considering having a loyalty program of some kind. New models will always be coming out as long as there is a demand for that category of instrument. We all have to face the fact that there is an obsolescence factor with anything you buy.

Cheers,

Mike T.

Does anyone know the details of the prior Loyalty Program from Motif ES to XS?  What was offered?  Just trying to get a sense of what might by offered this time for the XS to XF loyalty program.  Thanks.

stephenchoi - 02 August 2010 05:29 PM

Does anyone know the details of the prior Loyalty Program from Motif ES to XS?  What was offered?  Just trying to get a sense of what might by offered this time for the XS to XF loyalty program.  Thanks.

The original Yamaha Loyalty program was really a “sell the old board yourself and Yamaha will give some freebies to both buyer and seller”.  If I recall, the Buyer of the old Motif got a free warranty and I think both got some type of Motifator.com store credit.

The key point is any loyalty program is not a “trade-in your old board to Yamaha” program.

A generous loyalty program would be greatly appreciated in these tough economic times.

though I could be happy with just the new XF performances being made available for the XS - but since there will be new voices, Arps,and such that probably would not work.

so what percentage of motifator users suggestions were incorporated in new Motif XF?  10% or less?

Less, but I guess different people will have different lists.

Df.

miket156 - 02 August 2010 04:56 PM

I can’t go along with the cost of an XF system board being only $300.00 There was a LOT of R&D;money that went into design, writing code, spec and mfg proprietary processors and then manufacturing the board itself. Its not the same as IBM clones that used off-the-shelf parts, Intel and other microprocessors, video cards made by companies that only made video cards, I/O boards, generic D-RAM that could be bought in quantity from companies that only make memory.

miket156 - 02 August 2010 04:56 PM

That market is completely different (and much cheaper) than what MI manufacturers are producing. They are making a completely different product for a much smaller market with a limited number of buyers.

miket156 - 02 August 2010 04:56 PM

So if Yamaha says the system board sells for $900 (retail price) it doesn’t sound out of line.

miket156 - 02 August 2010 04:56 PM

They also have to inventory the items have a distribtion system which includes computers, software, and people to manage and support their parts/service.

miket156 - 02 August 2010 04:56 PM

The installation (if you want it to have a warranty) would have to be installed at a Yamaha dealer or service center or that has a tech(s) that is trained and knows what he’s doing.[/Quote]
I could perform this upgrade myself. How much training do you think is *really* needed? Though I wouldn’t because of the warranty.

miket156 - 02 August 2010 04:56 PM

Lets say that an upgrade can be done by a local Yamaha dealer. They might be able to charge 60 bucks for the installation, but they will have to make money on the system board too or it won’t be worth doing. In that sense its the same as bringing your car to a dealer or service center and having an exhaust system installed. They charge for the parts and the service.

I think you’re way off the mark. For argument’s sake let’s say they charge $100 for something that takes 1/2 hour to do. If I can get a guitar setup for under $100 (And that takes more than 1/2 hour), I think they’ll install a circuit board that I could otherwise do myself.

miket156 - 02 August 2010 04:56 PM

At one time I thought that MI system boards where very expensive, but after thinking about it for quite awhile and drawing from the experience I had working for computer companies, it’s tough to low ball proprietary products with a very limited market and stay in business.

I agree. Though if you do manufacturing, especially once outsourced, once you recoup your costs and are in the profit stage you can sell things at a lower price and make a profit, the XBOX360 and PS3 are a few makes examples I can come up with.

miket156 - 02 August 2010 04:56 PM

Anyway, Yamaha has already stated there will not be an upgrade path but they are considering having a loyalty program of some kind. New models will always be coming out as long as there is a demand for that category of instrument. We all have to face the fact that there is an obsolescence factor with anything you buy.

Loyalty programs are great and appreciated, but for me and I’m sure others the traditional sell and buy approach simply isn’t worth it. I have no regrets in buying the XS, it’s still a great board and has made me a ton of money. This thread is about an idea based on an educated guess, that would be useful to myself and surely others. I’d even venture to say I think Yamaha stands to make some money based on the volume of upgrade sales that they would otherwise not get.

Wes, wth all due respect, I disagree with your statement that Yamaha could
make some extra money. The cost of implementing an upgrade program like the one you propose wouldn’t be worth it.

Every time a new product comes out, there will always be people who cry
foul or who present a case for making an upgrade available that turns
their existing product into the new product. This has happened with every
new version of the Motif series. When the ES came out, people moaned and
crabbed about how it was unfair, and they had just spent their hard-earned
money on the Classic and now this..etc. Same thing happened when the XS
came out, ES owners complained.

Companies who have offered upgrades to existing products (such as the
aforementioned Emu sampler) have still never designed the upgrades to
turn the existing model into the new model.

If you love your XS and don’t feel the XF is a significant change from it,
then you’re good. I think your point has been well-made, but honestly
I don’t think any amount of rationalization or presenting of statistics
is going to make it happen.

I vaguely remember reading about a KB player that needed to buy a new system board for his Nord Electro; it was about $900 too. I thought the price was way out of line because the Electro wasn’t all that expensive to begin with. However, the entire synth is on that system board, so the KB player had the choose to buy the replacement system board or buy a NEW keyboard instrument. So its not uncommon to find that kind of price on a system board for musical instruments. Should it be that high? No, but it is. There are reasons service parts are priced the way they are and only Yamaha can tell us why their system board is priced at $900.00.

I also remember when Korg introduced the M3, it was available in 62, 73, or 88 note keyboards. Being that the M3 sound module was a separate component, we all thought that we could buy a 73 note KB to gig with, and have an 88 note KB at home to practice on and play. But Korg decided it was not going to make separate keyboards a service part. So that blew away the whole component system design that Korg was touting. It looks like the manufacturers know something that we don’t.

Cheers,

Mike T.

We checked in our system and the main board for the Motif XS is $1100 because it is basically the entire machine.  We expect the XF will be about the same.  Also you would need to buy a new LCD screen as these are technically slightly different.  Oh , yes and a can of black paint .

We understand the thought, but unfortunately it is not realistically possible.

If you tried to build anything...a keyboard, a computer, a car, a washing machine...by ordering spare parts from the mfr it will cost you far more than just buying the whole thing in the first place!

The cost of the circuit board assembly is not just the cost of the materials, but the cost of building it and keeping it in inventory as a separate order item. Then you’d have to pay for a Yamaha service center to install it. 

I wouldn’t hold my breath…

One other option to consider is if you are happy with your XS8 and don’t want to lose money on selling it and then replacing it with the XF8, why not keep the XS8 and buy a XF6 for all the new features, flash capability, and customization of the XF series? Buy a second tier for your KB stand and you’re set.

Just a thought,

Mike T.

DavePolich - 03 August 2010 11:50 AM

Wes, wth all due respect, I disagree with your statement that Yamaha could
make some extra money. The cost of implementing an upgrade program like the one you propose wouldn’t be worth it.

Every time a new product comes out, there will always be people who cry
foul or who present a case for making an upgrade available that turns
their existing product into the new product. This has happened with every
new version of the Motif series. When the ES came out, people moaned and
crabbed about how it was unfair, and they had just spent their hard-earned
money on the Classic and now this..etc. Same thing happened when the XS
came out, ES owners complained.

Companies who have offered upgrades to existing products (such as the
aforementioned Emu sampler) have still never designed the upgrades to
turn the existing model into the new model.

If you love your XS and don’t feel the XF is a significant change from it,
then you’re good. I think your point has been well-made, but honestly
I don’t think any amount of rationalization or presenting of statistics
is going to make it happen.

Dave,

I understand the point of it “Not being worth it” for Yamaha. I wasn’t insinuating it would be wildly profitable, just an above and beyond move for existing customers that may have been feasible with good faith and great PR/ customer relations as the reward.

I appreciate what you said, and can see where you’re coming from. I’m not crying foul whatsoever, I’m very happy with my XS and it’s been on the market a few years so change is inevitable. It was simply an idea based on how similar the boards were and knowing basically the ENTIRE keyboard is on ONE circuit board from having taken it apart. This is totally different than the Classic to ES IMO. The XS and XF share most of the same parts sans the mainboard and LCD screen. There were far more differences in previous motifs so it’s a completely different argument IMO. This is the only reason I got defensive with posts about how different they were and how impossible a task it was. Generally speaking, it’s as few as two parts.

Yamaha_US - 03 August 2010 06:45 PM

We checked in our system and the main board for the Motif XS is $1100 because it is basically the entire machine.  We expect the XF will be about the same.  Also you would need to buy a new LCD screen as these are technically slightly different.  Oh , yes and a can of black paint .

We understand the thought, but unfortunately it is not realistically possible.

Hey thanks for at least looking into it. TRULY appreciate it!

With exception to the price, this is exactly what I thought. The mainboard is the WHOLE thing basically which could probably swap out easy. I figured the LCD was different, but wasn’t sure if the old one would work but perhaps not look as nice. I imagine the XF OS is using a different driver for the LCD and that’s why it’s not backward compatible. The actual code that writes to the screen (Before the driver) is probably the same. Changing the driver to support the XS screen would probably be trivial. Well, at least as a one time thing it would be, but maintaining that as the OS is updated is too much to ask. Oh Well! That’s why we throw the idea out there right?

$1100 for the Mainboard? Is that the end user price if I were to call Yamaha for parts(Makes sense), or is that your manufacture cost(Does NOT make sense)?

Thanks everyone for entertaining the idea…