Derek Cook - 02 August 2010 01:45 PM

Just a perspective from a long term Yamaha nut (all my synths apart my Nord G2 Modular are made by Yamaha!).

I probably accept that market forces mean that the majority want “nice sounding” keyboards and they don’t want to scratch below the surface, and most people will be content with presets and third party libraries. I am equally sure that the XF will sound “good” in the same way that my ES Rack sounds good, and it will please many people.

But as a synth freak (but who is also a commercial realist), I find it understandable but disappointing that Yamaha have dropped so many amazing technologies over the years, which whilst they gratify people like me were relative marketing failures. If you haven’t heard the EX5’s FDSP, then you haven’t lived!

I’m still waiting for the day for the Killer Yamaha Product (KYP) that will replace my EX5, FS1R, AN1x and SY77 and their more innovative synth engines. Until then I have my EX5, FS1R, AN1x and SY77 which are still capable of inspiring me in a way that my Motif ES just doesn’t. It’s not that I don’t like my Motif, it’s just that it doesn’t excite me in the way that the older synths do.

Now if the Yamaha KYP included the EX5, FS1R, AN1x, SY77 and a Nord type modular, I would be selling my granny, my mother, my wife, my daughter, heck, my whole family to get that synth! :-)

Derek, you certainly expressed many of my thoughts, I have said for a long time that Yamaha needs to do a Motif that includes all of those older but excellent synthesis engines. Not only would it sound great, but it would be an instant classic and a huge seller.
Clyde

DX7IIFD, SY77, SY99, Hammond C3, Steinway L

DmitryKo - 02 August 2010 12:40 PM

youdog - 02 August 2010 11:18 AM

If you look side by side on the out side you can see that the:
1. ES is better than the Classic
2. XS is better than the ES
3. XF is the same as the XS with black paint

Common, if Korg could keep repacking the Triton series for 10 years with Triton Classic, Triton LE, Triton Studio, Triton Extreme, TR and X50 which all features the same engine and the same sound libraries… How can you argue that “XF is an XS with a black paint” when you’ve got double the sound ROM and the ability to expand sample memory to full 3 Gbytes?

You got very good eyes if you see double sound on the out side. who told you the XF has the ability to expand simple memory to full 3 GB.

1. Motif XS 2GB at one time.
2. Motif XF 2GB plus 128MB = 3GB Bad Math
3. 1024MB + 1024GB = 2GB

XF has 512 User locals for 2GB of simples
XS has 384 User locals for 2GB of simples
Just give me 384 Presets locals and at least 1280 User locals for 2GB of simples.

Why have over 1300 preset locals for just 741MB and only 512 User locals for 2GB.

I will like to see you put 3GB(you said) in 512 user locals.
I use my SEQ to record.
I hope Yahama is not trying to follow Korg.
I said on the out side the XF looks the same as the XS in black. Yahama said the new achitectural difference is Flash memony! Do flash memony comes in the XF? NO! Cost? $300
The XF comes with 128MB RAM(go away simples on power down)ok.
The Nord comes with 180MB Flash memony (Still in simples).

Hi I know the XF is a LITTLE BETTER than the XS on the inside.

The Motif XF has 741 MB of extremely well sampled instruments inside it. These are core insturments that get used very often like pianos, strings, drums and synths sounds.

Internal ROM= 741 MB
Add 128 MB of SDRAM = 869 MB
Add two 1 GB flash boards = 2 GB + 869 MB= 2.869 GB

The Nord Wave has no ROM at all so if you load 180 MB of Flash, what comes from the factory is overwritten. You also need to hook it up to a computer to make the transfer.

What is a little hard to grasp perhaps is that because the samples are in flash you can load the 512 User Voices that uses those samples in a matter of seconds.  If you are working on a hiphop track, load an all file without samples that has 512 Voices for that type of music. About 8 seconds to load.

Next if you are working on a classical piece load 512 Voices that are all strings and woodwinds. About 8 seconds to load.

If you use a computer and VST Sample software, here is an analogy.  You never actually have every sound from a software sampler like Kontact loaded in the program at the same time.  In fact , it would be impossible to do that, no computer has that kind of memory.  You just load what you need, when you need it and it is so quick to do that it does not slow down your workflow. 

The same will be true with the Motif XF if you have Flash options installed (or just use the 741 MB of ROM samples).

Yamaha_US - 02 August 2010 09:23 PM

Internal ROM= 741 MB
Add 128 MB of SDRAM = 869 MB
Add two 1 GB flash boards = 2 GB + 869 MB= 2.869 GB

What just dawned on me is you can’t expand the RAM on the XF? It’s 128MB and then if you want more you HAVE to buy the flash. Which hey, given the choice, who wouldn’t rather have flash?

The real question is what the Flash is gonna go for.

It makes since because 2GB or RAM + 2GB of ROM +128 Mb on onboard RAM might be more than the system is capable of addressing. Though it’d be cool if you could have updated the RAM and then past a certain point the internal memory would be disabled. Some products have worked that way in the past.

I hear everyone’s comments about wishing the motif did this and that and I agree. However I think this is a transitional keyboard and the last of the Motif. I think the next keyboard is going to be all new, and mind blowing when it comes out.

I’ve also heard the Motif has been selling so much better than everything else, that there was no point in going crazy making a new keyboard. I’d agree it’s head and shoulders above everything else sound wise, to improve the other things that were lacking in the Motif in the current market would simply be unfair! LOL

DmitryKo - 02 August 2010 02:50 PM

Derek Cook - 02 August 2010 01:45 PM

I’m still waiting for the day for the Killer Yamaha Product (KYP) that will replace my EX5, FS1R, AN1x and SY77 and their more innovative synth engines. Until then I have my EX5, FS1R, AN1x and SY77 which are still capable of inspiring me in a way that my Motif ES just doesn’t.

There was such a product, it was called the Korg OASYS keyboard, and it was $8000 :) There were plug-in boards for the Yamaha MU racks which ended in the Motif and S-series, and very few people bought them.  I doubt you will really buy your dream Killer Synth from Yamaha if it cost you $7000 or more (and you certainly won’t sell your family to get one). I don’t want to get into the argument why it will cost that much, I’m sure Bad_Mister can explain it better from his industry insider view. Just continue to enjoy your vintage gear.

The OASYS was a Korg, though, and Korgs just don’t float my boat, so it wouldn’t be my killer synth. :-)

The problem with Yamaha’s Plug-in architecture is that it was too fiddly setting up board voices, host voices, unable to dump the board contents back to computer, etc. It was a flawed concept compared to how the EX5 integrated AWM, AN, VL, FDSP. I have a PLG150-AN in my Motif ES Rack, and setting it up is complex even for a technical person like myself.

Don’t worry, no need to argue. I’m just expressing an opinion, and I know that commercial reality and market forces mean that I will be enjoying the vintage Yamaha synths for quite a while yet, whilst the Motif series give the majority what they want. :-)

And just because they’re old, doesn’t mean that they are obsolete.

Derek Cook - 03 August 2010 04:16 AM

The problem with Yamaha’s Plug-in architecture is that it was too fiddly setting up board voices, host voices, unable to dump the board contents back to computer, etc. It was a flawed concept compared to how the EX5 integrated AWM, AN, VL, FDSP.

Most people thought EX5 was a flawed concept itself - the CPU was underpowered, the text UI was incomprehensible etc. Of course the new platform such as the Motif XS/XF wich a fast CPU and big color display would suit multiple synth engines much better. If you recall, we’ve had long arguments about it in the “old” forum, like in this thread and many others.

For now, Yamaha decided to just enhance AWM synthesis with Expanded Articulation voices and recently Spectral Component Modelling on the CP-series, though it’s a pity that SCM didn’t make it in to the XF. So if you really must have virtual analog in a workstation, you have no other choice but Motif/ES, Korg Triton series, Alesis Fusion HD, or the upcoming Kurzweil PC361K. If the latter does extremely well, we might see a return of dedicated VA synthesis in the next generation of Yamaha gear (or, if Motif XF does extremely well, they migh release a niche small-series VA synth like Roland does).

Yamaha_US - 02 August 2010 09:23 PM

Internal ROM= 741 MB
Add 128 MB of SDRAM = 869 MB
Add two 1 GB flash boards = 2 GB + 869 MB= 2.869 GB

youdog - 02 August 2010 08:32 PM

who told you the XF has the ability to expand simple memory to full 3 GB.
2. Motif XF 2GB plus 128MB = 3GB Bad Math

Dude, sample ROM (Read-Only Memory) is nothing else but, well, sample memory, permanent one for that matter.

FYI Roland has always counted expansion ROM slots in their sample memory calculations; Yamaha didn’t specifically do this until now because they didn’t have expansion memory slots.

Do flash memony comes in the XF? NO! Cost? $300

PS. I just hate this new forum software with its arbitrary styles and formatting...

DmitryKo - 03 August 2010 05:04 AM

Derek Cook - 03 August 2010 04:16 AM

The problem with Yamaha’s Plug-in architecture is that it was too fiddly setting up board voices, host voices, unable to dump the board contents back to computer, etc. It was a flawed concept compared to how the EX5 integrated AWM, AN, VL, FDSP.

Most people thought EX5 was a flawed concept itself - the CPU was underpowered, the text UI was incomprehensible etc. Of course the new platform such as the Motif XS/XF wich a fast CPU and big color display would suit multiple synth engines much better. If you recall, we’ve had long arguments about it in the “old” forum, like in this thread and many others.

For now, Yamaha decided to just enhance AWM synthesis with Expanded Articulation voices and recently Spectral Component Modelling on the CP-series, though it’s a pity that SCM didn’t make it in to the XF. So if you really must have virtual analog in a workstation, you have no other choice but Motif/ES, Korg Triton series, Alesis Fusion HD, or the upcoming Kurzweil PC361K. If the latter does extremely well, we might see a return of dedicated VA synthesis in the next generation of Yamaha gear (or, if Motif XF does extremely well, they migh release a niche small-series VA synth like Roland does).

I agree that the Achilles heel of the EX5 was that the DSP horsepower in performance mode that allow you to have four “vanilla” parts with insert effects active or one FDSP/AN/VL part and one part with inserts effects active. SCSI transfers were also excruciatingly slow. Apart from that, the EX5 still sounds far better than the Motifs to my ears, which isn’t surprising given that the AWM engine has more features (e.g. SCFs), and with AN and VL being integrated with AWM makes it so much easier to use than PLG boards. And it’s still the only synth in the world with FDSP (although at EX5 Tech we do wonder if its seen a return under a different name in the CP series). The SY77 proved that you don’t need oodles of Wave ROM to sound good if you have a good sound engine to process the samples or FM sources. FM still has loads of potential left in it, particularly in SY77 and FS1R guise.

I’m probably taking this a little OT now, so will stop my public dreaming. :)

Good luck to Yamaha and the XF, in the mean time my Yamaha “classics” (and a Nord G2 modular) will keep me gratified for a long time yet! :)

Dmitry Ko wrote:

So if you really must have virtual analog in a workstation, you have no other choice but Motif/ES, Korg Triton series, Alesis Fusion HD, or the upcoming Kurzweil PC361K.

Add don’t forget the Korg M3 (EXB radias card).  And though the Nord Stage is not a workstation, it has a healthy dose of musical satisfaction, and not only are the acclaimed organs on it modeled, it has a mini and super satisfying virtual analog section onboard- sounds freakin’ beautiful, real-time tweaks = pleasing orgiastic sonic mayhem!  Never had anything close to that sound experience with rompler “analog”; but of course they don’t have 20+ knobs/buttons dedicated to a virtual analog engine, and I’ve never experienced such satisfying fx (esp. for that 70’s sound).

Derek Cook - 03 August 2010 03:33 PM

it’s still the only synth in the world with FDSP (although at EX5 Tech we do wonder if its seen a return under a different name in the CP series).

Interesting. http://www.ex5tech.com/ex5ubb_cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=22&t=000046

So basically SCM is indeed a combination of FSDP and physical modelling (at least for virtual FM synthesis).. Hopefully it will eventually find a way from the $5000 CP-1 to somewhat less expensive gear, such as the next-gen workstation…

Randelph - 03 August 2010 04:06 PM

Add don’t forget the Korg M3 (EXB radias card).  And though the Nord Stage is not a workstation, it has a healthy dose of musical satisfaction, and not only are the acclaimed organs on it modeled, it has a mini and super satisfying virtual analog section onboard

Looks like it’s time to vote with my money, as Bad_Mister likes to put it…

If you want to add an alternative synthesis model to your existing setup, the Korg RADIAS-R is well worth a look. If you just get the module, you can use it over MIDI from your existing keyboards.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=RADIAS-R&aq=f

I rate mine highly - capable of some stunning audio that you just can’t achieve on sample+synthesis synths. It makes a great companion to a Motif.

Df.

Dreamflight - 03 August 2010 06:35 PM

If you want to add an alternative synthesis model to your existing setup, the Korg RADIAS-R is well worth a look. If you just get the module, you can use it over MIDI from your existing keyboards.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=RADIAS-R&aq=f

I rate mine highly - capable of some stunning audio that you just can’t achieve on sample+synthesis synths. It makes a great companion to a Motif.

Df.

YES!!! Radias is one of my favorite synths of all times
it is an indefatigable machine that does everything you like
a brilliant add to any rig, i actually have one installed in my M3 (EXB Radias)+Radias KB:

Click thumbnail to see full-size image

That was for the picture… i usually prefer it that way:

Click thumbnail to see full-size image

Yamaha_US - 02 August 2010 01:44 AM

What does the Motif XF mean to Motif XS users ?
There have been lots of discussions about who the target for Motif XF is and some misconceptions.  So we thought we would put together some thoughts on different Motif owners and what the Motif XF means to them.

If you own an XS and decide for whatever reason that you don’t want to upgrade right away, what does the XF mean to you ?

Well, first you get the benefits of a portion of the XF development as we are planning on releasing an OS upgrade that adds some of the features of the XF to the XS.  This was not as simple a decision as it might seem.  Some companies would devote all their attention and resources to just the new product.  However we felt that by showing support for a product (the Motif XS) we will no longer sell or manufacturer, it would give people confidence that we support our customers and that we would provide the same kind of support for the XF.

Second, you also will get the benefit of all the new software applications and new sound libraries that are being developed for the XF.  Because there is 100% compatibility between the two products , the libraries will be developed first to be able to load into the Motif XS and then version will be created that add Motif XF exclusive ROM waves.  You have already seen the benefits in the release of John Melas Waveform Editor and the new Motif Creator software from Chicken Systems.  These were designed first to support the Xs and will be ported to have XF support in the next few weeks.

So in many ways, the Motif XF launch is a very good thing for current Motif XS users.

If you own an XS and decide to upgrade, what does the XF mean to you ?

We think that the Motif XF is a significant upgrade in wave ROM, usability and all the factors that make a Motif a Motif.  There have been rumors that the XF is targeted to ES users, but this is not true.  We think anyone who uses samples or would like to put hasn’t because of the inconvenience of having to load your samples every time you turn on the keyboard will release that the Flash boards are a very significant fundamental change in the way you can work.  If you have 512 or 1 GB of RAM in your XS now, just imagine never having to wait for it to load samples again.

The XF is 100% compatible with XS files so you could buy a Motif XF and a Flashboard and in about a half hour you would be working with your new keyboard with all your data stored in flash.  This is the easiest transition between Motif models that has ever existed.

If you own an ES and decide to upgrade, what does the XF mean to you ?

The Motif XF is also compatible with ES files ( not Performances or Masters because the spec has changed , but about everything else).  It would be the same process of upgrading from an ES to an XS.  So what’s unique is that you can actually move up and transfer your data through two generations of Motif easily which ahs not be in the case in the past.

If you own an original Motif and decide to upgrade, what does the XF mean to you ?

There is no compatibility between the original Motif and the XF however the difference between the two keyboards is pretty dramatic.  We stopped selling the Motif in 2004 so it has been almost seven years.  Isn’t it time for an upgrade ?

We are also targeting all the people who own competitors’ workstations and new users who are just joining the ranks.

By the end of the month, we will be putting together a loyalty program in the US as we did with the Motif ES and XS.  This will offer special add on values (discount coupons, extended warranties, valued added sound content) to people who upgrade whether it is from a Motif, ES, XS or competitor’s product.

For what is worth, Motif XS remember me the evolution from Korg Triton to Triton Extreme… Who has a Motif XS probably would not invest so much money to buy a new XF, also because new features are not so usefull, the XS’s ROM wave set is not so bad, and it’s a good base to built up new sounds. Sometimes I think that few of us could program really deep their XS. Now I’d like Yamaha give us some new and really pro sound library, I’d pay 200 $ to have a good rhodes sound in my XS, who had play a Nord Stage or Electro probably would agree with me.

Wow...On this video I didn’t know that Lady GaGa could change her look that much....Lol Jay Z also look different.

Don’t jump to fast to conclusions.
It’s still a beef up XS with a new name XF so far until more in dept info / research is done.
Also you would have to fallow the sales to see if it’s excepted by users.
Being one of the first XS line end user, I only see an advantige for storing samples.
With the upgrade in wave ROM you don’t have to load samples every time you turn on the XS.
I usually keep mine on 24/7, no need for me to wait for sample loads, so far the XF is not making me go ahhh & ohhh.
Here on the sight it’s the same worm acceptance from veteran users as well. 3.5 years and this is what was done.
This is no new synth, it’s just an upgread with a new letter, paint, and storage Rom ( Motif XS - SF) in my opinion.

With the closing of Open Labs (Overpriced Neko, Miko, & DBeat http://www.gearslutz.com/board/rap-hip-hop-engineering-production/515665-open-labs-financial-troubles.html

Yamaha just gave us more confirmation that in this Recession, Workstations as we know them are decreasing & deceasing.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/rap-hip-hop-engineering-production/507181-workstations-thing-past-5.html#post5652787
Just my opinion.
Peace & blessings.