miket156 - 02 August 2010 10:55 AM

Quote by Dreamflight:

“As an experienced XS owner, I was really hoping for new synthesis models, bigger sequencer memory, maybe a 32 track sequencer, higher polyphony, more insert FX (or better routing thereof), seamless transition between voices in voice mode, step recording, the next generation of the legendary arpeggiators, more analogue outputs, true multitrack audio recording to internal HD ... that kind of thing. From the specs though, it seems that most if not all of the existing XS limitations (sample RAM aside) are present in the XF.”

I would have liked to see some of these upgrades as well, but lets face it, that would mean a total redesign of the XS class synth.

Actually, I don’t think it would need a total redesign. It would have meant expanding the existing architecture with ‘more of the same’ but applied to those specific well documented areas that it would have made a big overall difference.

The underlying OS would have remained much the same, just a few subsystems (both hardware and software) would have been upgraded.

If the XF had a 32 track sequencer, 176 note polyphony, 16 insert FX, the ability to load samples quickly from a firewire drive or an internal SATA II drive and a new hardware susbsystem which placed FM and Analogue Modelling voice cards internally (don’t forget that Yamaha already have this stuff developed) I would have probably bought it like a shot.

I also completely get that it’s a *great* upgrade for ES owners, as is the XS.

However, look at the price tag. Load the XF8 with 2 x 1Gb flash boards and you’re looking at a total RRP of $4100. Even with the upgrade rebate that’s a hell of a lot of money to save a minute or three of sample loading now and again.

Also, once you have actually filled your flash ROM with piano and orchestral samples (or whatever) you’re going to have even more loading time if you want to use several high quality sample banks, as they won’t all fit in together, so you will be making coffee as the flash ROM slowly loads that shiny new bank that you just purchased, and when you’ve done using it you’ll be making a lot more coffee while you load your original data back in.

You can transfer a 512Mb file from one SATA or FW-800 drive to another in a few seconds. I would have much rather seen this kind of speed increase applied to DRAM sample memory loading times. The money currently required for flash ROM would have been far better spent on extra polyphony and FX hardware chips.

And this might just be me, but I find the claim that the XF is the next generation of Motif to be quite misleading. It’s a slightly bigger sibling, but certainly not the next generation.

Df.

I don’t post much in these forums, but I do read them every few days.  As the owner of a Motif XS8, I want to respond in this thread. 

I did not expect Yamaha to come out with a new workstation this soon because the XS seems to still be doing very well and the economy seems too “soft” right now to support a new product release.  However, being that Yamaha did come up with a replacement for the XS, I think the way they did it is great.  Here is a new keyboard for those who need the upgraded hardware and features that the XF offers, while at the same time, extending the “life” of the Motif XS for the rest of us.  I am really pleased with this, and am certainly looking forward to the next firmware update for my Motif XS8. 

Personally, I don’t need the 2 GB flash feature (I load different sample set everytime I power up), but I can readily see the situation that another poster here described where in professional live shows, such a feature would be just the ticket.  I am a hobbyist and not a professional musican.  I did that back in the late 70s for a couple of years, but ultimately chose another career path more suitable to my personality and the lifestyle I envisioned for myself.  I am glad that I did it at one time and respect those who have continued along that path.  So my needs will be much less demanding than those of the professionals here, and I respect that.

As for not adding step time in the sequencer...I am not really a keyboard player.  My main instrument is the guitar, but I have taught myself to “get around” on keyboard well enough to make use of my XS8.  The fact that the XS does not have step time in the sequencer, actually forced me to learn to play.  Seriously, there was no “easy way out” (i.e. step time) so I had to learn to play.  For me, that was a good thing.  Other posters, when this subject has come up in other threads, have said that they needed to do some things that would be impossible to play in real time regardless of how skilled a player may be.  I can see that, so for them, a step sequencer would be a good thing.  I did suggest at one point in a thread that the Yamaha QY-100 has step time and can be connected to the XS.

For me, the XS has been all the keyboard I need.  I am actually relieved that the new XF could strike that balance between providing new features that will really help many people, while not causing me undue GASsing for something new whether I needed it or not.  Add to that, the fact that we XS users will benefit from the developments in the XF too.  :)

Well done, Yamaha!

Thanks,

Tony

Dreamflight - 02 August 2010 11:57 AM

The underlying OS would have remained much the same, just a few subsystems (both hardware and software) would have been upgraded.

If the XF had a 32 track sequencer, 176 note polyphony, 16 insert FX, the ability to load samples quickly from a firewire drive or an internal SATA II drive and a new hardware susbsystem which placed FM and Analogue Modelling voice cards internally (don’t forget that Yamaha already have this stuff developed) I would have probably bought it like a shot.

Straightforward. Just use a button to toggle between tracks 1-16 and 17-32, otherwise leave the screens pretty much ‘as is’. You could do this leaving vast majority of the GUI interface completely unchanged with the exception of adding more tracks to select from. MIDI ports - easy, it’s just an extra parameter.

In performance mode, just change the layout to make better use of the available screen space. Modifying GUI layout does not equate to synth redesign.

Df.

youdog - 02 August 2010 11:18 AM

If you look side by side on the out side you can see that the:
1. ES is better than the Classic
2. XS is better than the ES
3. XF is the same as the XS with black paint

Dreamflight - 02 August 2010 12:36 PM

Straightforward. Just use a button to toggle between tracks 1-16 and 17-32, otherwise leave the screens pretty much ‘as is’.

XF sounds like a perfect synth for my needs.
Faster screen redraw and flash memory sounds awesome.
I will definitely buy one as soon as it’s in stores.

Well kept XS6 for sale in northern Europe…

The Motif XF sounds good to me.

A big part of my frustration with the XS was its horrible file management, esp. around samples.  I made a valiant effort, put a lot of time into learning the system and was rewarded with an on-going series of workarounds ‘cause the system didn’t recognize duplicated waveforms, and the Yamaha didn’t have a sample editor or librarian.  So even after lots of time and frustration, I was never able to make the XS “mine”. 

So I switched things up and bought a Korg M3: what a joy!  Every company has a sound design philosophy, and overall the M3 floats my boat way more than the XS soundwise.  Made me realize: wow, there’s so much hype around the XS, part of it for good reason: Motifator is an awesome support site, they have the largest sound libraries and even good 3d party editors.  But it’s still hype if the board doesn’t deliver the satisfaction that I bought the board for in the first place, and I’m believing they’re “the best”.

And then recently I discovered the Nord Stage (found a lightly damaged floor model at a Guitar Center for 1/2 price!).  For those not familiar with the Nord lineup, the Stage is their flagship, and has 3 modules: Organ, Piano and Synth.

All I can say is DON’T BELIEVE THE HYPE!  Maybe the XS, and now the XF is the ideal board for a lot of folks out there- not for me.  I grew up playing piano and am a funkster at heart, and while I THOUGHT I needed 1,500 sounds and thousands of arpeggios and the ability to tweak everything to the nth degree- the truth, for me, is I need chunky sounds, I need to play music, and the Nord Stage INSPIRES ME! 

Even liking the sounds of the M3 more than the XS, I still find myself playing the Nord Stage hours every night when I get home, the other boards hardly at all.  The best way I can describe the sound quality, the playing experience: IT FEELS LIKE A REAL INSTRUMENT, and not an endless series of features, functions, and soon-to-be-learned possibilities.

And of course that comes down to what works for me- having too many options just gets confusing after awhile- the Nord Stage has 1/50th the features of the top 4 workstations, but what it does do it does really really well, and almost everything you can do is mapped out on the front panel- wonderful.  And the fx are just awesome: the leslie is to die for, the drive sounds real, the reverb does a wonderful job, etc.

I also appreciate the light weight- it’s the first 88 note board I considered, being that it’s only 41 pounds, and with the pitch and bend on top it’s not as long as an aircraft carrier.

I’m not trying to rain on the XF parade.  I did pay a LOT though, in terms of money (upwards of $3,500 for a fully expanded XS7) and time (LOTS of frustration and learning over a 2 year period), only to discover that the XS was not a board that I could wrap my head around, make “mine”, and be a good platform for actually making music!  I didn’t read much on this site (which is understandable, this is a corporate sponsored site) about the M3 or the Nord Stage, so I wanted to give the benefit of my HARD WON AND PAID FOR EXPERIENCE on this site.

My current relationship with these boards is the Nord is played all the time, the M3 fills in the blanks (and then some- it’s a fun, versatile board), and XS is going to be sold. 

I do wish I could have started with the XF- I probably wouldn’t be writing the post the way I’m doing if I’d started with a board that has such improved sample and file management. capabilities.

Just a perspective from a long term Yamaha nut (all my synths apart my Nord G2 Modular are made by Yamaha!).

I probably accept that market forces mean that the majority want “nice sounding” keyboards and they don’t want to scratch below the surface, and most people will be content with presets and third party libraries. I am equally sure that the XF will sound “good” in the same way that my ES Rack sounds good, and it will please many people.

But as a synth freak (but who is also a commercial realist), I find it understandable but disappointing that Yamaha have dropped so many amazing technologies over the years, which whilst they gratify people like me were relative marketing failures. If you haven’t heard the EX5’s FDSP, then you haven’t lived!

I’m still waiting for the day for the Killer Yamaha Product (KYP) that will replace my EX5, FS1R, AN1x and SY77 and their more innovative synth engines. Until then I have my EX5, FS1R, AN1x and SY77 which are still capable of inspiring me in a way that my Motif ES just doesn’t. It’s not that I don’t like my Motif, it’s just that it doesn’t excite me in the way that the older synths do.

Now if the Yamaha KYP included the EX5, FS1R, AN1x, SY77 and a Nord type modular, I would be selling my granny, my mother, my wife, my daughter, heck, my whole family to get that synth! :-)

Randelph - 02 August 2010 01:18 PM

recently I discovered the Nord Stage (found a lightly damaged floor model at a Guitar Center for 1/2 price!).  For those not familiar with the Nord lineup, the Stage is their flagship, and has 3 modules: Organ, Piano and Synth.

All I can say is DON’T BELIEVE THE HYPE!  Maybe the XS, and now the XF is the ideal board for a lot of folks out there- not for me.  I grew up playing piano and am a funkster at heart, and while I THOUGHT I needed 1,500 sounds and thousands of arpeggios and the ability to tweak everything to the nth degree- the truth, for me, is I need chunky sounds, I need to play music, and the Nord Stage INSPIRES ME!

I used to have both Motif ES7 and P-90, which are supposed to have the exact same CFIIIS grand piano sample. Even though the sample is the same, the look and feel of playing the P-90 was two heads above the ES. Even playing P-90 keyboard with the ES grand piano sound didn’t feel a slightest bit the same as playing the P-90 with its native sounds.

I now have Roland SH-201 sitting next to the P90, and its synth sounds are heads above most synth sounds available on the Motif.

However, I really doubt I would be able to score a TV show on the P-90 and SH-201. The Motif may not have the best possible sounds in the universe, but it’s just that, a nice all-round rompler. The alternative is buying lots of keyboards, or hiring Van Halen for guitars and a symphonic orchestra for strings. Very few people in the world can afford it. For the rest of us, workstations offer the best sound you can get from a music machine.

Derek Cook - 02 August 2010 01:45 PM

I’m still waiting for the day for the Killer Yamaha Product (KYP) that will replace my EX5, FS1R, AN1x and SY77 and their more innovative synth engines. Until then I have my EX5, FS1R, AN1x and SY77 which are still capable of inspiring me in a way that my Motif ES just doesn’t.

dmitry wrote:
Workstations are about packing as much sounds as possible in one unit, not making an excellent dedicated organ or analog piano.

I used to have both Motif ES7 and P-90, which are supposed to have the exact same CFIIIS grand piano sample. Even though the sample is the same, the look and feel of playing the P-90 was two heads above the ES. Even playing P-90 keyboard with the ES grand piano sound didn’t feel a slightest bit the same as playing the P-90 with its native sounds.

I now have Roland SH-201 sitting next to the P90, and its synth sounds are heads above most synth sounds available on the Motif.

However, I really doubt I would be able to score a TV show on the P-90 and SH-201. The Motif may not have the best possible sounds in the universe, but it’s just that, a nice all-round rompler. The alternative is buying lots of keyboards, or hiring Van Halen for guitars and a symphonic orchestra for strings. Very few people in the world can afford it. For the rest of us, workstations offer the best sound you can get from a music machine.

Agreed, the XS and the M3 and the PC3 do most everything.  But within that understanding there’s distinctions to be made. 

Though I’ve never played the Kurzweil PC3, I’ve heard many people say similar things to what I’ve said about the Nord: that the feeling connection between fingers and sound is deeply satisfying, organic connection of sorts.  Their drawback, esp for me as I’m not willing to be a geekhead any more, is the most difficult operating system to learn (and also the deepest with V.A.S.T.)

The M3 is supposedly the most user friendly of the workstation makers.  I never learned the operating system to the depth that I did with the XS, so I’m not really sure, but the quality and sparkle of the sound engine, to my ears, is heads above the XS.  And having a built-in, independent drum machine function for Voice and Performance modes is wonderful, as are the pads, and KARMA is way beyond the millions of arps on the XS.

I found the XS, while having a reputation for being somewhat unfriendly, to be a great board as long as I treated it as a stage piano on steroids.  Like being able to so easily layer 4 sounds in a combo and have corresponding faders and the 8 x 3 knob control and category search and performance control is impressive and very user friendly.  But in my experience it was only that top layer that had that level of friendliness, otherwise I found lots to be frustrated with .

Where I found the hype around the XS to be the strongest is having “features” like over 6,000 arps.  OK, impressive, but to use those arps for drum patterns was a pain in the arse and not even available in Voice mode; and I found assembling arps from these 6000+ for my custom created Combis to be incredibly tedious.

Like 8 element architecture: OK, sure, if you’re a tweaker that’s really cool, and it’s way more than the M3’s.  But then I get the M3, 2 element (but stereo), and I like the sounds better!  Go figure.  It’s not about the number of features that seem cool, its about how the sounds/playing inspire you, and the friendliness / accessibility to the features that are given. 

Granted, all the workstations are beasts to learn.  And with some of the XSpanded samples that were given away I heard a sound quality that made me realize there’s more to the XS than the stock sounds.  2 Gigs of flash memory and improved file/sample management could make a huge improvement in friendliness and sound quality (esp. with the 500 MB thrown in and the doubling of ROM).

dmitry wrote:

However, I really doubt I would be able to score a TV show on the P-90 and SH-201

Yes, so the reasoning goes.  It’s like, “Whoa, if I ever wanted to score a film, or play exotic instruments (that I have no idea how to really play), etc., etc., then I’ll need to have a board that does everything”.

That, and other lines of reasoning led me to buy the XS as the “best keyboard out there”. 

In my experience and how I play music, it takes a lot of experimentation and playing each sound, working with the sound system (I now have the Motion Sound KP 500sn, with 2 12” drivers and 500 watts one-box-stereo; wonderful) to “own” the sound, to know its strong and weak points, what fx goes with it, what sounds good layered together. 

The Nord Stage is well-named.  It’s not a studio keyboard with firewire outputs, it’s 6 part multi-timbral and has many other ‘knocked out of the ring’ lack of features.  Until I play it, and then I realize, that most of what i do is play, and I want to feel good playing without too much complication, and with the Stage I get that. 

I did find however, that on a recent theatre project with a friend (before the Nord, but I had the M3 as well), that I found the XS very straightforward to work with for building up simple Combis and having a variety of sounds to work with.

Does anyone know the details of the prior Loyalty Program from Motif ES to XS?  What was offered?  Just trying to get a sense of what might by offered this time for the XS to XF loyalty program.  Thanks.

(Sorry, I also posted this in another thread before finding this one which seems more appropriate.)

I caught some criticism for my die-hard approach to purchasing a Yamaha synth back some years back when I made my decision on a Motif XS.  The reasons I gave for my loyalty at the time were ALL based on personal preference.

Yamaha, with this community, the support of this community and the continued support of the ownership community by evolving product lines instead of deviating them has vindicated me on so many levels.

Thanks guys!  I look forward to the OS update so I can tap tempo my band into submission!  :)