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Viewing topic "Where are PLG150-AN sounds stored?"

   
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Posted on: July 02, 2010 @ 09:56 PM
anotherscott
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If I create sounds on a PLG150-AN (or load in sounds like those from the Regenerator voice library), where are they stored… on the card itself, or elsewhere in the Motif? Specifically, if the card is in a Motif, and sounds are created for it, and then the card is moved into a Motif Rack, are those sounds still there with the card? Or are all those setting saved in the original Motif, and so they would have to be moved over separately to be able to use them in the rack?

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Posted on: July 04, 2010 @ 09:04 AM
Bad_Mister
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It is a bit complicated but here it is:

When you create a VOICE for the PLG150-AN (like the Regenerator library), those Voices are considered custom USER BOARD VOICES. What that means is when Dave Polich (the library’s author) created those Voices, he used the AN Expert Editor.

Those are custom Board Voices - they get loaded to a special RAM bank on the PLG15-AN board (bank 036/002). They are bulked over from the Editor to this bank. In a similar fashion to how samples are loaded in to a RAM bank, the 036/002 bank is volatile - this means when you power down the data is lost.

So these custom Board Voices must be reloaded to the special RAM bank 036/002 each time you want to use them.

The other type of VOICE in the Motif Rack is called a PLUG-IN VOICE. A Plug-in Voice uses the PLG150-AN board but applies Motif-Rack parameters… Instead of the Voice data “pointing” to a PRESET ROM sample, the Plug-in Voice points to a BOARD VOICE on the PLG150-board. That Board VOICE is treated like an ELEMENT - making up the sound source for the Plug-in VOICE.

The Plug-in Voice applies Motif-Rack parameters like Effects (the board does not have effects like Reverb and Chorus, or Insertion Effects) and controller assignments. So the BOARD VOICES in 036/002 become the sound source (oscillator) that the Motif-Rack parameters “point to"… So not only did Dave create the PLG150AN data BOARD VOICE, he also created Motif-Rack PLUG-IN VOICES that use that Board Voice data. The combination is what makes the sounds created in the Editor, playable.

So much like a ‘sample’ wave, the Voice data points to that sample and turns it into a playable Voice… the 036/002 Board Voice is like the volatile sample data, and the PLUG-IN VOICE points to that data making it a completed Motif-Rack VOICE based on the AN data.

Because the Motif-Rack’s PLUG-IN VOICE data is not volatile, it remains in memory. It is the 036/002 bank Board Voice data (the data that was created in the AN Expert Editor, the data that actually configures the resources on the PLG150-AN board) that disappears when power is lost.

So if you power down, the 036/002 bank reverts back to the original “placeholder” Board Voice data and although the names are there, the sound is now changed.

So what must you do?
You have to reload the PLG150-AN RAM bank (036/002) each time you power ON the Motif-Rack. Fortunately, the engineers at Yamaha thought about this - and because you may not always be near your computer, they put a special storage location inside the Motif-Rack where you can “SAVE” the BOARD VOICE data - this way you can reload it anytime you want to use those Regenerator (Board) Voices.

The custom AN RAM bank Voices can be saved to the Motif-Rack’s own internal memory. You can then re-load your custom PLG Voices after power up. Here’s how:

[UTILITY] > PAGE [>] to the “Job Select” screen > Cursor down to “Plug-in Save”.
You can select the PLG slot or slots you want to save.
Hold [SHIFT] + [ENTER] to execute the save operation

You also will see > Plug-in Load

The PLUG-IN SAVE routine will store the Custom User Voices from the PLG150-AN (036/002) board bank. You can use the PLUG-IN LOAD routine to restore the data to the 036/002 bank. 

(An Autoload routine was added in the Motif-Rack ES.)

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Posted on: July 06, 2010 @ 09:53 AM
anotherscott
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Bad_Mister - 04 July 2010 09:04 AM

It is a bit complicated but here it is:

“A bit complicated” is an understatement. :-) But thanks for the info, and I think I understand most (but not all) of it.

Now I’ll add even more complication.

Originally, I intended to buy the PLG150-AN card, put it in a borrowed Motif to play around and create sounds with it (and probably load in the Regenerator sounds), and then later move the board into the Motif Rack I intend to get.

Instead, I ended up getting a Yamaha AN-200 desktop synth module, which (as I understand it) has a PLG150-AN card inside.

So I have a new, odd wrinkle on my question. Can I get Regenerator sounds directly into the AN-200 (from computer to AN200 over MIDI)? I had originally also thought, if that weren’t possible, that it might be possible to take the card out of the AN200, put it in the borrowed Motif, download the patches into the card, and then take the card out of the Motif and put it back in the AN200, but it sounds like that won’t work because the sounds will disappear from the board’s volatile memory when you power it down to move it out of one unit into the other. Regardless, I do understand that, even if I can get Regenerator Board Voices into the AN-200, I would not have the the Plug-In Voices which apply Motif-specific processing to the Board Voices. (See, I got that much, I think!)

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Posted on: July 06, 2010 @ 10:45 AM
Bad_Mister
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You are understanding it. The complexity of the PLG boards is a given. They are alternate technologies (as is the case with the AN, DX and VL boards) and each has its own rules. They were designed to service a variety of different products from the late 1990’s right through to about 2007. So they served 10 years of products as an add-on.

MU modules, SW1000 computer cards, CS6R, CS6X, S30, S80, S90, S90 ES, Motif, Motif-Rack, Motif ES, Motif Rack ES were among the products that they worked in .

The fascinating thing about the PLG boards was not that they worked but that survived over a decade of products and could (with some work) be used by owners of a wide variety of products. It existed based on the fact that there are those who can appreciate the difference between real synthesis engines compared to what a sample-based synthesizer can do. The difference is important to those who ‘get it’.

We tried to make a multi-technology synthesizer but this proved to be very difficult at the time - because each required a different set of rules and parameters. And those who did not “get it” just felt it was not worth the effort. Alas.

If you place the PLG150-AN in a Motif-Rack you can use the Regenerator sounds (no problem).

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Posted on: July 06, 2010 @ 11:17 AM
anotherscott
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Bad_Mister - 06 July 2010 10:45 AM

If you place the PLG150-AN in a Motif-Rack you can use the Regenerator sounds (no problem).

Do I understand that to mean that there is no way to use the Regenerator sounds with a PLG150-AN in any manner *except* having the card installed in a Motif Rack (or Rack ES)?

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Posted on: July 07, 2010 @ 05:30 AM
Bad_Mister
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The question is: Do you have REGENERATOR data in a format that can be loaded to the AN200. If you had asked this question 9 years ago (when the AN200 was out) I’d probably remember… lol

If you have the REGENERATOR data in a .ANS or .AN1 file format you should be able to load the Board Voice data to the PLG150-AN while it is in the AN200.

The .ANS format is the file format of the AN EXPERT EDITOR. As I recall you can open this file type with the AN200 Editor. The question is do you have the data in this file format?

The .AN1 format is a file format of the AN1X keyboard. I do not recall what type of files were provided with REGENERATOR but I would imagine that the Board Voice data was probably provided in a BULK file format (.W2B/.W3B) which would allow you to bulk the data to the PLG150-AN board while it is in a host product. The host product could load this file format… but you have no way of accessing the data in the .W2B/.W3B file directly with an AN200 (other than its Editor).

So you may not be able to do this. Sorry, there still may be a way but I don’t have the information and more. Seems as if I remember that someone created a utility that could create the .ANS file from the bulk file but it was an unofficial program, and I don’t have it.

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Posted on: July 07, 2010 @ 09:35 AM
anotherscott
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Bad_Mister - 07 July 2010 05:30 AM

The question is: Do you have REGENERATOR data in a format that can be loaded to the AN200.

Well, at this point, I don’t have Regenerator at all! Maybe some Regenerator owner here could chime in and let us know what file format it uses for its data? (.ANS or .AN1 or .W2B or .W3B)

You have made a couple of references to the AN Expert Editor, do you know where I can find that program? I searched online and found the docs for it, but not the program itself. Sounds like it might be useful.

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Posted on: July 07, 2010 @ 11:42 AM
Bad_Mister
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Link to the PLG150-AN Expert Editor Version 1.2.2

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Posted on: July 07, 2010 @ 11:58 AM
anotherscott
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Bad_Mister - 07 July 2010 11:42 AM

Link to the PLG150-AN Expert Editor Version 1.2.2

Thanks!

And I found the W2B to ANS converter you mentioned, it’s at http://www.jmelas.gr/motif/tools.php

Okay, so let’s assume that the Regenerator library is in .W2B bulk format. Do I understand correctly that I should be able to use the “W2B to ANS” converter to put the sounds in a format readable by the AN Expert Editor (right on the computer, no Motif required), and that once converted, I should be able to download them into the AN200?

Though I’d still be stuck if they’re not in .W2B format, but instead in .W3B format?

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Posted on: July 07, 2010 @ 03:50 PM
Bad_Mister
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First, the .w2b/.w3b file format is always a pair of files… that is how it works. So think of them as a set. They always must go together. The REGENERATOR data would be made up of two files: “RGNR.W2B” and “RGNR.W3B”

If you have the utility that reads the .w2/b/.w3b. file format and gives you the .ANS file, then it is this file type that can be opened by the AN200 Editor.

The AN200 Editor can read the .ANS file and send the Board Voices to the AN200.

Link to the AN200 Editors

Good luck… but that is the theory.

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Posted on: July 13, 2010 @ 01:17 PM
Derek Cook
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Bad_Mister - 06 July 2010 10:45 AM

We tried to make a multi-technology synthesizer but this proved to be very difficult at the time - because each required a different set of rules and parameters. And those who did not “get it” just felt it was not worth the effort. Alas.

Was it called the EX5 :-) which is still an awesome synth 10 years on, just like the other multi technology synth that predated it, called the SY77. I couldn’t be without either (nor the AN1x or FS1R).

Back OT, it’s still a work in progress, but I am expanding an.factory (http://www.xfactory-librarians.co.uk) to convert between AN1x, AN200 and PLG150 formats, including being able to bulk dump to a “primary” and “secondary” device for those with two different types of AN in their systems. The reason for this is that I have both an AN1x (another awesome synth) and a PLG150-AN inside a Motif Rack ES, and I want to be able to program on the AN1x and transfer to the PLG (I recognise the differences between them won’t allow all conversions to be perfect).

The conversion is transparent. For example you can load an AN1x file and send it to the PLG150-AN, or load a PLG150-AN file and send it to the AN1x. The conversion is done “on the fly”, and I currently have the basics working.

Once I have the basics finished, I will probably be looking at creating something that will create not only the PLG150 data from AN1x data, but the Motif ES host voice based on the AN1x parameters not supported by the PLG, but which are dealt with by the host (e.g. the Motif PLG Voice). Can this be done? Well, I did an AN1 to S1V (AN1x to EX5) converter in ex.factory.

As Bad Mister has already suggested unless you specifically want the AN200 “dance oriented pattern sequencer” features, personally I would take the PLG150-AN card that is inside the AN200 and drop it into the Motif.

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Posted on: July 13, 2010 @ 01:28 PM
Derek Cook
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anotherscott - 07 July 2010 09:35 AM
Bad_Mister - 07 July 2010 05:30 AM

The question is: Do you have REGENERATOR data in a format that can be loaded to the AN200.

Well, at this point, I don’t have Regenerator at all! Maybe some Regenerator owner here could chime in and let us know what file format it uses for its data? (.ANS or .AN1 or .W2B or .W3B)

PS: I have Regenerator, and the board data is provided as SYX or MID data for playing from a sequencer for the Rack versions (but I’m also programming an.factory to read PLG SYSEX data as well as the AN1x SYSEX that it currently does).

Depending on the host synth there are different host files like W2B and W3B files - too many to list here.

Once I can read the Regen SYSEX file, it would be possible to send it to the AN200. Obviously the host voice features are not included in that.

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Posted on: February 09, 2011 @ 09:12 AM
S80Bob
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Very interesting topic. I want to delve into the world of virtual analog. I have an ES6 but don’t want to gig with it. So I thought of purchasing an S30 and a PLG150-AN so that I will have light weight board with good organs/strings/pads and virtual analog capability for gigging.

Is there internal memory on the S30 (like in the motif rack) that allow one to store the volatile “AN Board Voices” into, so they thencan be loaded to the “036/002 bank” of the card? If not in the S30 maybe from the sm card?

Thanks. Bob <><

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Posted on: February 17, 2011 @ 08:53 AM
S80Bob
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I bought a used CS6x instead of an S30 and am very glad. I think the CS6x has all the sounds the S30 can produce, has an additional polg slot and much more control of the sound. I’m not a big fan of using the arppegiator live but it if fun in the studio and helpful for ideas. Plus I can just shut that off and have all the S30 can offer…

So still the question stands, will I be able to store plg voice data into the CS6x? maybe on the sm card so I could load from there?

Thanks
Bob <><

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Posted on: February 20, 2011 @ 01:17 PM
Bad_Mister
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It is a bit complicated but here it is: certain PLG150 boards have user RAM.

When you create VOICES for the PLG150-AN with the AN EXPERT EDITOR or for the PLG150-DX with the DX SIMULATOR or for the PLG150-VL with the VL Editor, those Voices are considered custom USER BOARD VOICES. They get loaded to a special RAM bank on the respective PLG board. They are bulked over from the Editor to this bank. In a similar fashion to how samples are loaded in to a RAM bank, the board’s RAM bank is volatile - this means when you power down the data is lost.

So these custom Board Voices must be reloaded to the special RAM bank each time you power ON and want to use them.

The other type of VOICE is called a PLUG-IN VOICE. A Plug-in Voice uses the PLG board but applies the host product’s parameters (the host being the CS6X)… Instead of the Voice data “pointing” to a PRESET ROM sample, the Plug-in Voice points to a BOARD VOICE on the PLG150-board. That Board VOICE is treated like an ELEMENT - making up the sound source for the Plug-in VOICE.

The Plug-in Voice applies the host product’s parameters like Effects (the board does not have effects like Reverb and Chorus, or Insertion Effects) and controller assignments. So the BOARD VOICES in RAM become the sound source (oscillator) that the CS6 parameters “point to” The combination, PLUG-IN VOICE referencing the BOARD VOICE, is what makes the sounds created in the Editor, playable.

So much like a ‘sample’ wave, where the Voice data points to that sample and turns it into a playable sound… the RAM bank Board Voice is like the volatile sample data, and the PLUG-IN VOICE points to that data making it a completed CS6x VOICE based on the PLG150 data.

Because the CS6x’s PLUG-IN VOICE data is not volatile, it remains in memory. It is the RAM bank of the (AN/DX/VL) Board Voice data (the data that was created in the Editor, the data that actually configures the resources on the PLG150 board) that disappears when power is lost.

So if you power down, the RAM bank reverts back to the original “placeholder” Board Voice data and although the names are there, the sound is now changed.

So what must you do?
You have to reload the PLG150 RAM bank each time you power ON the CS6x. Fortunately, the engineers at Yamaha thought about this - and because you may not always be near your computer, they put a special file type that will bulk the Board Voice data back to the appropriate PLG board’s RAM bank.

The custom RAM bank Voices can be saved to a SmartMedia card.. You can then re-load your custom PLG Voices after power up. The file type is a .S2B - which is a special BULK file. YOu can have the CS6X automatically load the PLG150 data by naming the file according to the slot in which you place the boards.

If, for example, you want to autoload a set of custom sounds to your PLG150-AN in SLOT 1, you would create the bulk file for SLOT 1 by naming it (literally) “AUTOLD1.S2B”, if you have a PLG150 DX in SLOT 2 you would create the bulk for SLOT 2 by naming it (literally) “AUTOLD2.S2B

Hope that helps.

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Posted on: February 22, 2011 @ 01:36 PM
S80Bob
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Joined  05-14-2003
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Thanks Bad Mister. Yes that helps tremendously. I like the autoload option and glad to hear I can store the board voice data on the sm card. Thanks again.

Peace.
Bob <><

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