Hello,

i couldn’t find any posts about that one. sorry if i missed any.

in song mode, i’v built a guide-click on track 1 referring to the song structure. i’ve sampled an acoustic guitar in direct with the click for real-time reference.
while listening to the result i noticed the guitar part has some latency. i double checked with some one-note on click recording and this is not a lousy take issue…

i also get problems with a very low-volume result through the sampler, even after raising the gain before sampling.

how can i solve the latency problem?
how do i prepare my recording so i don’t get low volume?

i would appreciate your help, and if there is an old post i would be happy to read it.

thank you,

Ishay

in song mode, i’v built a guide-click on track 1 referring to the song structure.

Details please. Since this is (first) an unusual step, we wonder how you did this and why. If, of course, this was off so would everything else be off. Also you don’t mention what your “RECORDING TYPE” parameter is set to in INTEGRATED SAMPLING.

i also get problems with a very low-volume result through the sampler, even after raising the gain before sampling.

There is a meter, during sampling - what type of deflection are you getting on the meter, GAIN can be raised in two ways:
1) the GAIN knob on the back panel next to the input
2) the UTILITY mode gain: [UTILITY] > [F2] I/O > INPUT > MIC is for weak signals that need more gain like mic, guitars; LINE is for high output equipment.

Also we assume you have updated your Motif XS to version 1.55

Here are some suggestions for how you should be sampling your acoustic guitar (since you gave us very little information about your setup).

1) You should be using a good set of headphones. Why? Because we assume you are sampling in the room with your speakers - a live microphone in the room with your speakers is a bad combination. Turn your speakers off, monitor through the headphones, then you can use the Motif XS’s own metronome without fear of recording it. And without fear of feedback or re-recording your guitar… which can sound an echo and ‘latent’

2) We assume you are using RECORD TYPE = ‘sample+note” Again, you don’t say but “Sample+Note” automatically creates a note-on event to ensure your playback is triggered in time with your song.

The following is taken from the Sampling Guide in our SUPPORT area you will find it helpful in increasing your record presence:

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Here we will learn to Sample with Note (sample+note) so that we can overdub audio to MIDI tracks. The Compressor is one of the powerful professional tools in the arsenal of recording studio engineers. It is basically a leveling amplifier and is used to control the DYNAMIC RANGE of audio. If you have ever sampled and found that your level okay but that your recording lacked presence – the compressor is the device that will give you presence. It will make your sample perceptibly louder without actually going over the 0dB line. One of the special new features in the Motif XS is the inclusion of the VCM processors. The Compressor 376 is a phenomenal recreation of the classic studio compressors of the 1970’s and 80’s:

It is an Insertion Effect so let’s set this up:
• Press [MIXING]
• Press [EDIT]
• Press the [COMMON EDIT] button
Turn the main VOLUME down while we setup the processor – this is important as you do not want to scroll through various effects with an open microphone – it is just good standard practice. Once you have selected your Effects, you can bring the main Volume back up.
• Press [F5] AUDIO IN
Here you can see the parameters that are controlling the OUTPUT assignment of your AD Input. Although you see sends to the REVERB and CHORUS these will not be recorded to the sampler. The INSERTION EFFECT however will be recorded to the sampler.
• Press [F6] EFFECT
• Press [SF2] INS SW – Insertion Switch
Here you can activate the Insertion Effects on any eight PARTS. You may need to temporarily turn the Insertion Switch OFF on one of the Parts so that you can turn it ON for the AD PART.

• Select the INSERT SWITCH for AD
• Press [F5] AUDIO IN
• Press [SF2] CONNECT
Here you will see the AD PART routing to the Dual Insertion Effects > Move the cursor over to make a selection for INSERTION “A”

• Press [SF6] LIST – to see a list of effects that you can assign
• Select “CMP” the “VCM Compressor 376” is the first one of the compressor types
• Press [SF3] INS A – to see the parameters of the “VCM Compressor 376”
• Move the cursor down from TYPE to “PRESET”
• Press [SF6] LIST – to view a list of Preset configurations
• Select “Vocal Comp 117x” (or in your case: one appropriate for your acoustic guitar, try the PRESET called “Unplugged” as this is a good place to start for acoustic guitar. Tweak as necessary)

Tweak the INPUT until you see about –1dB of Gain Reduction. What this is doing is setting both the threshold and Gain Reduction. A compressor reduces the incoming signal when it ‘sees’ a loud peak, this has the end result of reducing the overall dynamic range – those giving the signal more weight or presence. The amount you will need to change the INPUT to see one dB of Gain Reduction will, of course, depend on the input signal, i.e., this is based on how loud or strong the signal coming in registers. This can vary depending on the microphone and the person in front of it. One dB of reduction may not seem like a lot; but in fact it is a protection against the incoming signal going over into the red. You will be able to see your incoming signal meter when you go to the Sample Record screen.

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You can find out more about the powerful Effect procesors and how they work in the following SUPPORT article:
Introducing Motif XS Effects

first of all, thank you very much for the quick and very detailed reply. there is a lot i need to learn about this multi-instrument.

i don’t think my motif has the 1.55 version. is that the source of my troubles?
i will download the updated version anyway. simply connecting the pc to the motif, right?

Details please. Since this is (first) an unusual step, we wonder how you did this and why. If, of course, this was off so would everything else be off. Also you don’t mention what your “RECORDING TYPE” parameter is set to in INTEGRATED SAMPLING.

i’m sorry, maybe i was misunderstood.
one of the instruments i would like to record beside MIDI is an acoustic guitar. so, in song mode i press [INTEGRATED SAMPLING], set the recording type to sample+note, in the UTILITY menu i set the input type to MIC, and the db’s parameter are all set to 0db.

now, deviding the problem to two:

1. while sampling i do not hear a click for reference, so i built one on track 1 a MIDI click with some drum voice, and record on track 2 for example. is there another way to sample and sync with the click?

when i hear the result i get latency from the sample. it comes a few milliseconds after the “click” i’ve built. i double checked if i may have played a lousy take-by sampling a single note refering to the click and it still has latency.

2. the sample is very weak even though i set the gain at the motif’s rear to the max, the inpute is set to MIC and i work only with good headphones.

i’m sorry if i’m still not accurate. i hope this is enough information so far.

thank you,

Ishay

First thing - version update.

To check your version number:
Press [UTILITY] to enter Utility mode
Hold [UTILITY] + [UP CURSOR] + [F1]
current firmware is: 1.55.xx

Here is a link to the download page for the Updater. It comes with a “readme” file that has all the detailed instructions. Read through them, then follow them.

You will need a USB Drive (although it recommends that the Updater file xxxxxx.PGM be the ONLY file on the drive, it should be the only updater file on the drive.)

http://www.yamahasynth.com/downloads/drivers_software/synthesizers/motif_xs/updater/

hello again,

i’ve just updated to the 1.55 version.
the low db problem is better when i sample using “mic” input (thow it distorts just a little bit on the highs).
sampling using line input gives a low volume again.

so i remain with two questions:

1. what is the order of action needed to be done in order to sample an acoustic instrument (in line or mic) so that it gets an optimal compromise between good gain&level;and distortion?
i underatand the order in the manual, but how do i get optimal results?

2. [b]i still get latency if i record on click. i have checked it enough times in several different types of playing to be sure of that. could the Motif have latency configuration? if so, what is optimal setup in millisec.?
if not, what can i do to fix the problem?

i hope the problems can be solved.

thank you very much so far,

Ishay

LINE level is for strong output signal - like from a CD player, or a mixer… it is basically looking for a signal with an output level of +4dB.

MIC is for a weak signal source -like a microphone, guitar, or bass… it is basically looking for signal with low output levels like -40dB.

The GAIN control when turned fully clockwise will add maximum boost for the weakest signals. So a setting where MIC/LINE = mic and the GAIN is fully clockwise is the setting for a microphone. Remember a microphone is “powered” by a simple coil of wires and a magnetic object attached to a diaphragm. It is a very weak signal and requires the most boost.

Setting a mic input to LINE will be the worst results… the instrument is looking for a +4dB signal and you are giving it something far to weak for it to register.

If you are getting distortion when you set the input to MIC, you simply need to back down the GAIN control until you do not get distortion.

See the article on GAIN STAGING: The art and science

Thanks B_M!

about that latency issue…

do you, or anybody else, have any idea where to start from?

i’m sure to be playing on-click while sampling my acoustic guitar.
1. i’ve built a midi click because i can’t hear the system’s click.
2. i can hear the guitar while recording, have played on-click and it sounds on-time.

but when i heare the result i get latency which i don’t understand how to modify or cancel.
does my Motif have a problem?
please help me if possible… i’m realy stuck with some projects.

thank you very much for your help so far,

Ishay

Sorry, I don’t know what could be the cause, and you really have to tell us exactly how you are setting up to do this record.

Why can’t you hear the click?
Can you post any more details about what you are doing?

Hello,

o.k, this what i’m doing.

i’m making guides, which are simply “musical charts” of the exact part of each instrument through a disc that will be recorded in a studio.
that is for the musicians to learn at home, and of course to see if the direction we are going to is good.

when i try recording acoustic instruments through line-in.
in utility i set the input to mic and set the gain to 6db, which is the max.

so in song mode, in intergrated sampling, i set the recording type to sample+note and the trigger mode is set to manual.

1. when i press the manual trigger (i think it is called simply “start” or “record”, i can’t hear any click from the motif for guidance.

so, what i did is building on track 1 (for example) a midi click that i’ve built with a perc. voice. (this also gives me the option to change from 4/4 to 7/4, but thats for another thread...)

2. now, this is my biggest problem so far:
when i sample an acoustic guitar on track 2 i can hear my own midi click from track 1, and my acoustic sample that i can hear while playing through good headphones sitts perfectly on the click. i’m sure i’m playing on click and i’m almost sure there is no latency while recording.
when i end the recording and hear the result, the acoustic guitar is slightly off the click and it appears to be a latency problem.

i’m realy stuck with that one…
can’t find anything about latency setup or problems in the Motif
i hope i’m doing something wrong or that the latency in the Motif is adjustable.

if you have any suggestions/solutions or any idea why this might happen i will be very happy to read about it.
sorry if i’m still missing details.

Thank you

Ishay

We will try and help you - there may be a better way to accomplish your goal. We’ll take it point-by-point and hopefully it will help…

when i try recording acoustic instruments through line-in.
in utility i set the input to mic and set the gain to 6db, which is the max.

The GAIN parameter has nothing to do with your input or recording level but is an overall OUTPUT parameter for the entire Motif XS L/R output. So setting the GAIN to +6dB does not affect your acoustic instrument inputs at all. It is an OUTPUT parameter… just FYI.

so in song mode, in intergrated sampling, i set the recording type to sample+note and the trigger mode is set to manual.

We recommend that you set the parameters as follows and we give reasons why:

RECORDING TYPE = sample+note
Reason: By setting the type to “sample+note” the Integrated Sampling Sequencer will automatically create a note-on event from the start of sampling through to the end of sampling to synchronize the start and duration of the audio you record.

TRIGGER MODE = punch
Reason: We are going to recommend TRIGGER MODE = MEAS (Measure) with this you can set a punch in and punch out measure - since you are going to be using the metronome, you can set the number of measures you want to record and have the XS record it precisely. And combined with the RECORDING TYPE = sample+note, the NOTE-ON event that is created will precisely at the top of the punch in Measure, and will have a duration that allows it to extend precisely to the top of the punch out Measure.

So if you wanted to record for 48 measures, starting at the top, you would set the TRIGGER MODE = MEASURE and set the range 001-049

Now to deal with the metromone. Here is what you need to know:
Press [SEQ SETUP]
Press [F1] CLICK
Set the CLICK SETTING Mode = rec/play
This will allow the metronome to be heard (use headphones) - I highly recommend headphones for obvious reasons, you do not want the microphone to pick this up in your speakers - in fact you want to turn your speakers off, and do the entire recording in headphones.

Since Integrated Sampling is not MIDI recording, there is no count-in - so the Motif XS provides a separate parameter for just this purpose. On the same CLICK screen set the SAMPLING COUNT-IN parameter to an appropriate number of measures for your musician.

This way when you setup for sampling using
RECORD TYPE = sample+note
TRIGGER MODE = Measure
When you arm the sampler by press [F5] START
The screen will read “WAITING...”
It is waiting for you to start the Sequencer transport [PLAY]… when you press the play button the SAMPLE COUNT IN will cue the musician with a click pre-record counting in the number of measures you have set. Recording will begin precisely at measure 1, beat 1, clock 000, and continue to the top of the punch out measure.

Also using the Motif XS metronome you can setup a TIME SIGNATURE map so that if you have multiple time signatures, the metronome will faithfully count the appropriate measures of each time change. You can even program tempo changes.

so, what i did is building on track 1 (for example) a midi click that i’ve built with a perc. voice. (this also gives me the option to change from 4/4 to 7/4, but thats for another thread...)

As outlined above the XS metronome is up to the task. In order to create your Time Signature map you should do so before setting up to record/sample.

Call up the blank SONG
Set the initial time signature
Press [JOB]
Press [F4] MEASURE
Select JOB 01: CREATE MEASURE
Here you can create time signature changes at any measure, for any number of measures you require:

INSERTION MEASURE is the first measure you want with the alternate time signature
NUMBER OF MEASURES the number of continuous measures of this alternate time signature
TIME SIGNATURE

Once you setup your Time Signature map, then you can go to [SEQ SETUP] and activate your CLICK SETTINGS as described above. Then go to INTEGRATED SAMPLING and go for it.

now, this is my biggest problem so far:
when i sample an acoustic guitar on track 2 i can hear my own midi click from track 1, and my acoustic sample that i can hear while playing through good headphones sitts perfectly on the click. i’m sure i’m playing on click and i’m almost sure there is no latency while recording.
when i end the recording and hear the result, the acoustic guitar is slightly off the click and it appears to be a latency problem.

Sorry I’m not sure what the cause of this issue is other than perhaps you are editing the sample. (just a guess)

We should mention this: when you sample the START POINT of the wave data is always 00004410 - I would and do highly recommend you use the TRIGGER MODE = MEASURE as outlined above, as the machine is accurate. Sampling always begins 100ms prior to punch in, so if you are recording at a sample rate of 44,100 cycles per second, the sampler will always record 4410 samples prior to punch just in case your playing is slightly early.

Do not correct this or your recording will be 100ms off… this is the only thing I can think of why you may be getting latency -Are you EDITING the sample?

...although you do not mention that you are editing your data, but just so you know the 4410 is the correct START POINT for sampling when working at 44.1kHz.

I do this kind of sampling setup all the time and have never had any “latency” - try the above setup and let us know.

hello,

took some time to get back to that project..
thank you very much B_M, works perfectly fine.

Ishay

Hi

I once had that latency problem while playing back a sample recording on SONG mode too, but I have found another way to cure it:

When you edit the track with the recorded sample in the TrackEdit screen, you’ll see the event editor.  On here you will notice that a Program Change (PC) event is recorded at the same time as the sample on that track (recorded as a starting note).

There are two things to do in this workaround:

First, I would remove this PC event, as that could be the culprit for causing delays (it becomes more apparent when looping that section of a song using the Play FX functions (loop)).

Second, I would turn the “audio track” into a ”Mix Voice”(MV) on the mixing page. Edit the mix voice so that the first element of that mix voice contains the USR waveform (the sample that you’ve recorded), then STORE the mix voice. 

The added advantage of this is that you could use Insert Effects on the track where that mix voice is placed on, as editing a Mix Voice is the same as editing/saving a USER voice - By the way, Mix Voices are saved with the song when you STORE it so no need to actually edit a USER voice!)

These steps would be used when you’ve finished recording the audio samples in your songs, if you’re adding more segments of audio the track will revert from MIXV to SMP (sample) again… If that happens, just record on another track and repeat those steps when done :)

It’s a slightly long-winded method, but it works!

Bryan