Hi!

I’m back here again.  Realised long time ago I spent to much time here in the Motifator forum instead of behind the XS ... but today, I discovered something I’m not quite sure is right or not.

I have a piano sound, where I change the amount of the reverb send with the AF1 button.  It works fine, but I decided I wanted to “reverse” the operation, as I most of the time click the AF1 button when playing that piano sound.

The initial Reverb value on the main screen is 7, and the Edit->CtrlSet->A.Func1:reverb send value is +8.  So I would initially expect that the “real” reverb value (7) would get +8 in addition when enabling AF1.

But when I turn of AF1 and adjust the “main screen” reverb value to 15, it sounds a lot drier than before.  So I decided to check this out more.  I set the “main screen” reverb value to 0 and turned on AF1.  Then I got the feeling of the amount of reverb.  Then I turned off AF1 and adjusted the reverb amount up to where I felt I got a similar reverb sound.  And it turned out to be in the area 28-32.

This made me think quite a bit.  Because it does not make really sense (and it might explain some other similar issues I’ve had with my foot controller as well - where its reactions where very sensitive).

The Edit->CtrlSet->A.Func1:reverb send value can be changed from -63 to +64, while the normal reverb amount can be adusted from 0-127.  Both gives 128 steps.  So in that perspective it would be, IMHO, reasonable to believe that 1 value up/down in the A.Func1:reverb send amount would mean either really 1 step or 2 steps.  With 2 steps, it would give the full range on the “main screen” reverb value from 0->128, or 128->1 if set to +64 or -63, respectively.

But why does it seem that 1 step on this controller via CtrlSet parameters are close to 4 times more powerful than 1 step on the “main screen” reverb value?

Can someone please explain this to me?  Have I misunderstood something?  Is it a feature or a bug?

dazo - 13 March 2010 10:30 AM

Hi!

I’m back here again.  Realised long time ago I spent to much time here in the Motifator forum instead of behind the XS ... but today, I discovered something I’m not quite sure is right or not.

I have a piano sound, where I change the amount of the reverb send with the AF1 button.  It works fine, but I decided I wanted to “reverse” the operation, as I most of the time click the AF1 button when playing that piano sound.

The initial Reverb value on the main screen is 7, and the Edit->CtrlSet->A.Func1:reverb send value is +8.  So I would initially expect that the “real” reverb value (7) would get +8 in addition when enabling AF1.

But when I turn of AF1 and adjust the “main screen” reverb value to 15, it sounds a lot drier than before.  So I decided to check this out more.  I set the “main screen” reverb value to 0 and turned on AF1.  Then I got the feeling of the amount of reverb.  Then I turned off AF1 and adjusted the reverb amount up to where I felt I got a similar reverb sound.  And it turned out to be in the area 28-32.

This made me think quite a bit.  Because it does not make really sense (and it might explain some other similar issues I’ve had with my foot controller as well - where its reactions where very sensitive).

The Edit->CtrlSet->A.Func1:reverb send value can be changed from -63 to +64, while the normal reverb amount can be adusted from 0-127.  Both gives 128 steps.  So in that perspective it would be, IMHO, reasonable to believe that 1 value up/down in the A.Func1:reverb send amount would mean either really 1 step or 2 steps.  With 2 steps, it would give the full range on the “main screen” reverb value from 0->128, or 128->1 if set to +64 or -63, respectively.

But why does it seem that 1 step on this controller via CtrlSet parameters are close to 4 times more powerful than 1 step on the “main screen” reverb value?

Can someone please explain this to me?  Have I misunderstood something?  Is it a feature or a bug?

It’s not a “bug”. You have two values to deal with regarding global reverb - the “send” and the “return”. Check to see the return is set to at least 96. I routinely set it to 100+. If the return is set to a low value (defualt is 64), then increasing the send isn’t going to give you as much reverb as you would expect.

DavePolich - 13 March 2010 11:49 AM

It’s not a “bug”. You have two values to deal with regarding global reverb - the “send” and the “return”. Check to see the return is set to at least 96. I routinely set it to 100+. If the return is set to a low value (defualt is 64), then increasing the send isn’t going to give you as much reverb as you would expect.

This is not exactly what I mean.  I might have not been clear enough in my description.  You are right there are two reverb values, send and return.  In my case, the return value is 96.

My observation is a difference when in the “effective” reverb send amount, depending on where you set it.  First set the reverb send value (from either the effect screen or the reverb knob) to 0. If I use AF1 to increase the reverb send value with +8 with the Edit->CtrlSet->A.Func1:reverb send value, I get a lot more reverb than 0+8.  When I go this path, I get more like 0+28 in reality.

So my question was more related to what why the Edit->CtrlSet->A.Func1:reverb send is much more “sensitive”.  Especially as both of them are supposed (or maybe expected?) to manipulate the reverb send value.

Just compare yourself, it’s even more obvious with some higher values as well.

(a) Set the reverb to 20, with the “reverb knob” and notice the amount of reverb.

(b) Turn the reverb knob to 0, and then go into Edit->CtrlSet screen and setup a mapping for A.Func1 to the reverb send parameter and set depth value to +20.  Then turn on the AF1 button.  The reverb amount sounds increased now compared to (a)

When turning the reverb knob to 0 or 20, the reverb send value can also be confirmed by looking at the Edit->Effects->Connection screen as well.

I used the “S700 for XS” grand piano sound for my testing.  I’m having firmware version 1.55.11 installed.

What you are not understanding is
1) the graphic that goes along with the Controller DEPTH setting
2) the nature of the controller you have selected
3) that the values are not simply added to your settings but have to do with degree of physical movement of a controller to offset a value.

The FULL CONCERT GRAND piano has the Voice’s Reverb send set to 8. (To see this press [F6] EFFECT from the main screen to take the shortcut to the COMMON EDIT > EFFECT routing screen.)

And it has the [AF1] button set to do REVERB SEND with a DEPTH of +32. (To see this press [F4] CTRL SET

The [AF1]/[AF2] buttons have two conditions 0 or 127… minimum or maximum. They do not send anything in between.

You can think of the DEPTH parameter will be “how much” you might have to move a controller to get the maximum response. As you can see when you change the depth parameter +32 is a linear response… for each increase in unit input there is a corresponding increase in unit output.

Note: Look closely at the graphic - it is a graph with 0 through +127 on the vertical axis and 0 through 127 on the horizontal axis. The horizontal axis indicates the value generated via the Source of the selected Set, whereas the vertical axis indicates the degree to which the Destination parameter is affected.

If you assign the Depth control to a controller that sends continuous values between 0 and 127 you may have a better chance to understand how this works.

Please try the following experiment on FULL CONCERT GRAND:
For example, assign the MODULATION WHEEL to control REVERB SEND DEPTH. (Currently MW is set to do CHORUS SEND - in CONTROL SET 1. Set the DEPTH of CONTROL SET 1 = 0, and then Change CONTROL SET 5 from [AF1] to “Mod Wheel")

If DEPTH is +32 (linear) as you move the wheel up you will hear an increase in SEND amount maxing out when you reach the top. For each unit of increase as you move the wheel there is unit of increase in reverb send amount.

If you increase the value of DEPTH higher than +32, you will see (visually) that it takes less movement of the wheel to get maximum reverb. As you approach about half-way you reach maximum reverb send - all movement beyond halfway is meaningless - because the send does not increase any farther. You cannot send more than 127! And on the graphic you can see that the horizontal is 64, the send level is maximum. You can see it, you can hear it.

If you decrease the value of the DEPTH parameter (in Control Set 5) so that it is lower than +32, you will see (visually) that you will never get to maximum reverb send. In fact, as you get to about +16 for the DEPTH the send is about halfway.

If you decrease the value of DEPTH to +0 you will see (visually) that no amount of movement of the wheel will yield reverb send.

By choosing an ‘either/or’, ‘on/off’, ‘0 or 127’ controller you can only get all or nothing… original amount or maximum send. So it would be wise to set the DEPTH amount according to what you want the reverb send to be when the AF button is pressed.

To understand the Negative values, you have to understand that there is nothing less than 0 when it comes to send amount. Negative values will only make sense if the original send is high - and quite naturally you will be using the controller to turn it down. Set the VOICE’s REVERB SEND to 119. You do so by pressing [F6] EFFECT and increasing the SEND value in the lower left corner from 8 to 119

If you understand why 119 you are starting to getting this… (hint) yes that is 8 units below 127… and would give the exact opposite affect for our example.

Now you will see the opposite response when DEPTH is set to -32 you will see a reverse linear curve. REVERB SEND is maximum with the wheel down, and for each unit increase in MW there is a corresponding decrease in Reverb Send, until you reach maximum setting for the MW which yields 0 send for reverb.

Check out the graph now that we are in the bizarro world of negatives. the vertical is from -128 to 0, when the horizontal goes from 0 to 127

If you set the DEPTH to -64 you will see reverse curve that reaches minimum when the MW is about halfway up.

Make sense?…

This and other Controller assignment functions are covered in the following articles:
Motif XS: Working with and Understanding Physical Controllers
and
Controller Assignments

Bad_Mister - 13 March 2010 03:37 PM

The [AF1]/[AF2] buttons have two conditions 0 or 127… minimum or maximum. They do not send anything in between.

Ahh!  This was the “silly” detail I did not think about.  And I completely understand the concept.  For some reason, I thought that “AF1 enabled ==> reverb send +8” (pure boolean value) ... but when seeing t hat that “AF1 enabled” in reality puts 127 into the equation instead, that makes the result “quite” different :)

Thanks a lot Bad_Mister for a very good explanation!

*going back to some sound programming*