I was wondering if anyone can help me out. I am working on a performance which involves combining a pure vocal and vocoder effect layered together. This is easy with the Motif XS and external mixer but I was wondering if it is possible to achieve this all inside the Motif. Is it possible to route the mic to both the vocoder and to the L&R;outputs at the same time or set the vocoder up in such a way that I can achieve the same effect?

You don’t need to do this in one go.

Step 1: Record the vocal, plain without vocoded effect using any track except track 1, and using ‘sample + note’.

Step 2: Using http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/recording_the_vocoder_to_the_sequencer as a guide you should be able to invoke the vocoder by using the sample voice created above to add a vocoded version of it to track 1.

If you create a sample voice (which you will do in step one above) then you can re-select this sample voice for other tracks and use it in place of the microphone in step 2.

You then have the original vocal + the vocoded version, and can mix them using the channel faders just as you would with normal tracks.

Df.

Dreamflight, thanks I will give that a go. What I was really after thought was using the two elements, vocal and vocoder together in a combined mix that could be performed on stage live. After playing around more with the XS it does not appear possible to do what I am trying, looks like I will have to use a mixer.

podpad - 02 October 2009 06:46 PM

Dreamflight, thanks I will give that a go. What I was really after thought was using the two elements, vocal and vocoder together in a combined mix that could be performed on stage live. After playing around more with the XS it does not appear possible to do what I am trying, looks like I will have to use a mixer.

Ahh, no you can do this :)

The vocoder itself has a Wet/Dry mix parameter. Set up track 1 for vocoding and in the Vce Edit screen (described in the document I linked to previously) select the Ins L effect and when it’s set to Vocoder you can set the wet/dry mix. Wet = Vocoded, Dry = original vocal. By changing this parameter you can vary the mix between the original vocal and the vocoded effect, thus getting both at the same time, live on the same channel in any proportion you want.

Df.

Dreamflight,

I just wanted to say that you are a very helpful guy.  I read many of these threads each day and I see you helping as many people as you can.  I’m sure everyone appreciates it.

Just wanted to give you a little kudos!!

Have a blessed night! :)

Basically my motivation is that people own this equipment and therefore just need a pointer or two in the right direction to realize how much can be accomplished with it. The benefit vs. the effort to document these pointers seems obvious to me.

If I’d had the benefit of other peoples’ experience when I first got into hardware workstations, then I’d have learned a whole lot more a lot quicker.

Your sentiment is warmly appreciated, thank you :-)

Df.

Dreamflight - 02 October 2009 09:10 PM

podpad - 02 October 2009 06:46 PM

Dreamflight, thanks I will give that a go. What I was really after thought was using the two elements, vocal and vocoder together in a combined mix that could be performed on stage live. After playing around more with the XS it does not appear possible to do what I am trying, looks like I will have to use a mixer.

The vocoder itself has a Wet/Dry mix parameter.

Hmm, I might have been a bit premature with this answer. I have been trying to figure out how to get a noise gate effect on the A/D input as bizarrely it seems to be missing as an option on the insert FX list (the ES has one, which is why I thought it would be there.)

During experiments to try and get a noise gate working via the one built-in to the vocoder, I’ve realised that the wet/dry mix on the vocoder is not as I previously described.

Wet = Vocoded signal
Dry = The synth voice having the vocoder applied to it

So this leaves two remaining unsolved problems.

1) How can we get a vocoded signal mixed with a ‘dry’ vocal in realtime.

2) How can we set up a noise gate on the A/D input.

I’ve had a look at both problems, but so far I can’t see a solution to either without using external equipment (I use an external mic pre-amp which has a noise gate on it)

Problem 1 is not such a big deal in my view, it’s not something you’d necessarily want to do that often and it can be achieved using other non-realtime means.

Problem 2 is more of an issue. Not having a noise gate on a microphone input seems a strange decision indeed, although as I stated above it can be bypassed by using an external pre-amp with that facility on it.

[Edit] I did some more experiments with extreme vocoding settings based on the info on pages 109 and 110 of the manual. By setting the HPF to thru, the Dry/Wet setting to D<W63 and turning the ‘gate’ parameter to off in the vocoder I was able to get a dry vocal sound but only when the instrument voice is being played (you can’t hear the instrument voice).

Now this might enable the Mic Gate Threshold parameter to act as a conventional noise gate, but you’d need to have some sustained background instrument sound playing into the inst input of the vocoder to ‘trigger’ the sound of the dry vocal.

Anyway, that’s as far as I got. I’m not going to play with it any more right now.

Df.

The Vocoder is not an effect that is applied to the vocal input, which is at the root of the issue. You are using the A/D Input (microphone) to modify a synth sound..

With an “effect” you will have a Dry signal and a Wet signal. This is not an effect for the voice, per se. It is using the signal from the microphone to modify the synth sound. You can choose to hear the synth sound (normally or not) but your mistake is that there is no Dry vocal signal to balance wet/dry.

When you route the A/D INPUT to the “INSERT L”, you are disconnecting it from the normal audio output path… normally the A/D INPUT goes to the Left and Right output, alternatively you could send it to the assignable Left and Right outputs, or to any of the firewire (digital outputs)… but this time you are routing the entire signal to a combination of INSERTION EFFECTS… not the Insertion Effects for the A/D INPUT PART, but the Insertion Effects that are for the synth sound in question.

So if you set a synth sound so that it is using both its insertion effects [INS A] and [INS B] to create the Large Insertion effect (VOCODER in this instance) - the A/D input will be used to influence (effect) that synth sound.

You still have separate INSERTION EFFECTS available for the A/D INPUT PART (they do not become the Vocoder, they are still available to process the A/D INPUT before it enters the Vocoder)… Remember: it is the INSERTION EFFECT (INS A and INS B) on the synthesizer sound that become the Vocoder!!!

The Wet/Dry parameter in the Vocoder is:
DRY = the synth sound being vocoded
WET = hearing the result of the (voice’s) envelope being applied to shape the synth sound.

You have a “carrier” (this is sound that can be heard).
You have a “modulator” (this is not heard directly, you hear the result of the modulator as it is applied to the carrier signal).

Vibrato is a modulator - think of a guitarist or a violin player applying a vibrato gesture to a string. You do not hear the modifier (the vibrato directly) you hear only how it changes the strings vibration… the string is the carrier, it is the vibration of the string that is heard. The modifier (not heard by itself ever) is only heard as it changes the result of the carrier.

The Vocal input (mic input) is used as a modifier - the envelope of your speech or singing is broken down (encoded) so that it is used to shape the sound of the synthesizer. The synth sound is the carrier.

By setting the WET/DRY parameter found in the Vocoder you are letting DRY (synth sound) through.

So once again - throw out thinking that the Vocoder is an effect on the voice… no it is using the voice to effect a synth sound!

Not sure I really know what it is you are after but that should at least let you know that you were going down the wrong path… There is no DRY vocal… You might take the Home Improvement route to a solution: Duct tape (lol) Simply tape two microphones together - one “dry” the other to modify the synthesizer (vocoder).
:^)

During my testing, you can actually feed a lot of the original modulator signal through to the audio outputs by using the HPF within the vocoder. Any frequencies in the modulator above the cutoff point in the HPF within the vocoder are sent around the vocoder and appear mixed into the signal as pure audio at the other end.

If you try the settings I mention above, you’ll see that this appears to be the case (and it is documented in the diagram on page 109 of the manual).

In other words you can get an ‘audio’ version of the modulator signal which is effectively gated by the presence of the carrier. By inputting a continuous carrier signal (via the Inst input & playing a sustained voice on the keyboard), you do actually get an audible version of the A/D input (ok, you don’t hear the part that’s being used as the modulator as the HPF splits the A/D signal into two parts, the modulator part below the cutoff and a conventional audio part above it so what you hear is the modulator signal post-HPF, with the lower frequencies removed.)

It actually enables you to use the Vocoder as a gate effect on the A/D input, (just turn the ‘gate’ parameter on) which is kinda cool. Speak/sing/whatever into the mic with the HPF cutoff set as low as possible and you can ‘chop’ it in and out by striking the keyboard, without any audible vocoded signal (just set the inst input level to 0.) In this case the amplitude envelope of the carrier is more important than the harmonic content.

It’s not perfect and it’s definitely a bit of a hack to bully the vocoder into working in a way it probably wasn’t intended for, but it’s an interesting thing to play around with.

The noise gate within the vocoder cannot be used to process the frequencies above the HPF cutoff though, as only those below it get fed into the vocoder effect itself, where that noise gate resides.

For anyone interested here are the settings to use in the vocoder (any parameter not mentioned, it doesn’t really matter what its set to):

Vocoder attack: 1ms
Vocoder release: 10ms
Gate Threshold: -30dB
Gate switch: On
HPF Freq: 500Hz
HPF Output level: 127
Mic level: 127
Ins input level: 0
Dry/Wet Balance: D<W63

Bad_Mister - 03 October 2009 03:23 PM

You might take the Home Improvement route to a solution: Duct tape (lol) Simply tape two microphones together - one “dry” the other to modify the synthesizer (vocoder).
:^)

Now that is definitely the best workaround I’ve seen yet :-)

Df.

Thanks for all the advice. To be honest I was only looking for this solution when taking the Motif XS to gig rehersals as I dont really want to drag other equipment around with me. For the main shows I tend to route things through external equipment anyway as I have more time to setup and more bodies to help carry gear around.