Dreamflight - 08 September 2009 04:05 PM

Softsynths are good in that they provide affordable creativity to people who would otherwise be unable to explore the wonderful world of producing your own material

Provided they pay for the software they’re using. I’ve heard too many stories about young home studio “musicians” with a $99 keyboard controller and thousands of dollars worth of pirated software.

each of your posts certainly make sense to me. and i believe they all have one thing in common. and that is, focusing on music.

software DAW certainly has its place and there are advantages to using a DAW from the beginning, in the middle or even waiting and using it at the end for post production.

however, turning on your XS and getting right to a song idea is the core foundation of a user’s passion to write and capture their song idea. turning to the DAW often distracts users with dazzling plugins and DSP effects, which can deter from the original song idea that the user had. i have had this happen many times with Logic. i will have the idea in my head, i at least record into pattern or song mode the gist of the song and or melody, then bump over to Logic and whammy! i get turned on trying some effect or something and an hour later, i have veered completely away from the original idea.

this reminds me of recording into say a AW4416 dedicated hard drive recorder versus using a computer at all. although, they both offer a similar end result, using the dedicated recorder will keep you focused on recording your song more than when tinkering around with a DAW. and here is where workflow comes into place.

i for one, enjoy working directly with the XS alone, and for the same reasons. actually, one of the first things i did with my XS was to install SODIMM memory so i could utilize the sampler, vocoder and more importantly, try out the idea of getting vocals into the XS that could be used during song construction.

using a TC Helicon VoiceLive1 [VL1] made things fairly easy and straitforward to jack my Audio-Technica ATM-75 phantom powered condensor microphone into the XS through the VL1. from an interface standpoint, i was hoping for it to appear “easier” but after you learn how it all works, it’s actually pretty easy considering how complicated this XS machine actually is. but, from the standpoint of a songwriter sitting down and recording that FIRST track with piano and voice, IMHO, the process is too difficult and many users may lose interest quickly when attempting to use their XS in this fashion. but, i wanted to share my experience because this interested me before i ever purchased my XS to begin with.

in the end, it is simply easier to jack the XS into my 01X and get to work in Logic and Mac, and get outstanding results right away. i believe this can be achieved within the XS, but will take dedicated time and practice to achieve the desire results you are wanting. in my case, i felt there was too much emphasis on the technical [which again] distracts from the idea of sitting down at the XS and composing a song. mind you, this does not mean you cannot compose songs using only the XS, it just means you need to think ahead first, how you are going to begin constructing your song. will you lay down a piano track then sing into the sampler? will you dive right to song mode and sing along with your tracks but not record the vocals then transfer the discreet tracks to your DAW via mLAN? or is this a song that will be composed, drafted and constructed in parts using patterns? and of course, each of these methods can be utilized when constructing the original song. and now with the SY70/90XS series, it is my opinion that getting track 1 down, with piano and voice, is a much easier and direct operation than ever before and this will interest many songwriters who already have the XS workstation.

speaking in defense of 01X and Logic, i will say, using them to record my initial vocal and keyboard tracks, in stereo and many times with the DSP i am wanting, is a simple task that does not distract me from the songwriting or recording process. i find this pleasureable and not frustrating. but, to make a long story short, i still prefer sitting down at the MOTIF_XS and constructing music, tweaking with things and then shooting it over to Logic and continuing from there. that is my workflow and i am glad that i have MANY options which minimizes “brick walls” in your recording process. i saw this right away long before ever purchasing 01X. and even though technology is marching on, i am looking forward to eventually purchasing an 01V96VCM to use with Logic version__ whatever it is when that time comes. as i said in an older post, i was tickled to see 01V in the Logic remote controller list and i have already researched the 01V’s PDF as to how all this works and was also glad to learn i could set up a dedicated surround buss using the 8-sub-busses in 01V. surround mixing and recording interested me long before buying my 01X and MOTIF_XS, so i find this amazing that i can still insert this hardware technology into my studio scheme while staying on the same path i am on now.

pardon my verbosity, but i hope each of you found something inspiring by my expressing my excitement using my gear. and it is clear to me, each of you, as i do, enjoy sitting down at the workstation and getting to your music!

HHNET

synthlogic - 09 September 2009 04:30 AM

Dreamflight - 08 September 2009 04:05 PM

Softsynths are good in that they provide affordable creativity to people who would otherwise be unable to explore the wonderful world of producing your own material

Provided they pay for the software they’re using. I’ve heard too many stories about young home studio “musicians” with a $99 keyboard controller and thousands of dollars worth of pirated software.

Yes, I agree, and I have heard/seen similar stories. I could rant on about that for ages, but I’ll resist as there doesn’t seem a lot of point. Folks who invest in proper kit would just concur and those who pirate it would ignore.

I’d like to see some better protection in music software. I think Reason had an interesting approach, where it often knows it’s a pirate copy but doesn’t say anything to the user, just flags all saved work as being from an illegitimate installation.

Df.

I am a hobby musician. Using software synths and a software sequencer, I did about one track per year. With the XS it is about one track every 6 to 8 weeks. And it sounds way better.

One of the arguments often mentioned regarding the soft/hard “war” is the “hands on approach” you supposedly get from hardware. There is a seed of truth to that, and it’s been mentioned in this thread too...especially when it comes the songwriting process, I admit, it is easy to just sit down in front of a hardware workstation, dial patches with ZERO loading time, and just get it down. I’ve done this myself multiple times, usually in Pattern Mode on the Motifs.

Then again...I have to wonder, the mantra “I’m a musician, not an engineer, I want to concentrate on making music and not play around with a computer” has been repeated so many times in this thread too (and often in similar discussions regarding the topic), that is it one of those that if repeated enough, everybody will start believing in it?

Because similar (fast) results can be accomplished with a well-designed DAW, like, for instance Ableton Live, which in my opinion has the best workflow of all the “big names”. Anyone familiar with it will certainly know what I’m talking about. In Ableton you work with “clips”, which are basically loops - you could consider them the Patterns of the Motif series, but it’s way faster. Basically you create a track, load a software instrument from the side panel, and hit record. A clip can absolutely be a songwriting idea that you want to get down. Do a bunch of these, and then move into the Arrange view. Hit ‘Record’, and improvise the track by triggering these clips on and off.

Aside from the obvious CPU burden that you have to deal with when playing with software instruments, all the various MENU DIVING and FOLDER MINING is what bugs me the most. I think the user interface on the Motifs is genius, because of the dedicated category selection buttons! Then again, you could argue that the Motif only does one thing, it doesn’t try to emulate multiple vintage analog synths (vs soft) have a multi-gigabyte sample library (vs Kontakt), emulate drawbar organs (vs B4) etc etc.

And it has to be admitted, software allows you to have an absolutely mind-boggling variety of sounds and sources. Take something like the Native Instruments Komplete package - learn every nuance of every soft synth in there, and it’ll take a lifetime. And you still have an amazing package of sounds straight out of the box.

It also has to be mentioned, that a computer/hard drive based recording setup - for instance just a measly laptop running Logic, Pro Tools, Cubase etc - is an absolute godsend when building tracks with hardware synths. I was just playing around with my Korg R3 again, and started recording audio into Logic from it. Click “New Audio Track”, dial a patch on the synth, and hit Record. Repeat. After about 15 tracks, add a drum loop from Stylus RMX, and I had a sweet electro-synth track in about 15 minutes.

Phew, quite a long post (and my first one at that!).

This may be a little bit cliche, but I think definitely bares some truth...It totally depends upon what one likes and what helps them personally to get the job done the best. 

I use the Motif XS, Native instruments Komplete, Miroslav and a bunch of other stuff.  Each one serves it’s purpose in my rig.  The Motif XS is brilliant for what it can do and for other things there are softsynths that are fantastic.  Soft synths can do a heck of a job, especially when it comes to orchestral instruments because of the sheer magnitude of samples that one can have, whereas the XS is limited to 1 gig of sample memory.  Of course I do know that it is not always quantity over quality...the programmer is vital in the process.  But one can hardly argue with the impeccable quality of something like the Vienna Symphonic Cube! 

I personally love the simplicity of hardware and the ability to quickly make ideas.  As I have often said, “ I absolutely looove the arp/performance part of the XS” I haven’t found any software that matches that!  Also, what a fantastic controller! Too bad I can’t use the knobs and faders to control tracks in Protools....although I can use them for soft synth control. Having tactile control with hardware...can’t be beat.

Prefer hardware over software...no.  I just like and appreciate both as I’m sure is the case with many.

Blessings all!

I don’t prefer either. I use whatever I need. (OK, whatever *I think* I need :-)

After some disastrous computer crashes in the early 90’s I became an outspoken hardware-only proponent for a few years, back then. Then I had a bunch of hardware synths (Kurzweil, etc.) die on me just as badly as any computer could, and that ended it.

So these days I only judge a synth only by how many sounds it gets onto the “sounds I like” list, which gets written up for any item that comes in. Note I said only “judging”, not “buying”. With pretty much any sound in the universe covered already, the only reason I’m still preparing to buy a Yamaha XS is because some of the jazz arpeggios make me really feel I’m playing with a group of cool cats.

Computers are great for a large order of things, including audio (mixing, post-processing, etc.). However, there seem to be not very efficient when it comes to the most artistic aspect of music.

When using a musical instrument standalone, I have the impression that the limit is just my imagination. Do not worry about disk space, boot time, latency, setting this or that. The standalone instrument is switched on and ready, can now be played. The music flows. When inspiration happens, the less time is lost, the better.

I do not want to waste time turning on the computer, wait for the OS to load, wait a VSTi host load, manage dozens, hundreds of files, etc, etc.. The computer is great for post-production, and archive, and some kind of editing patches (in XS case, the Voices, Performances and Mixing parameters), not for the instant capture of musical feeling and emotion. Sometimes, even the Motif XS is annoying in this respect: the OS takes some time to be loaded. I don´t like the boot sequence time. Could be faster? The instruments are looking more and more personal computers. The XS IS a computer (with a proprietary OS, Ethernet, USB to Device, Keyboard, LCD, MIDI, DIMM, ROM, mLAN, processors, and other circuits)! Good times they had keyboards with only 4 MB of ROM and an OS that loaded in 1 second, hahaha ... Even so, the XS is still a very very good instrument. So, the waiting for loading the OS is a small price close to the quality and resources available! I keep the computer off whenever I can.

>>>“why do you prefer hardware workstation?”

same way why chicks prefer hardware over software…
According to them also the longer the better - hence 88 keys.

RobsonLuis - 03 March 2010 10:10 AM

I do not want to waste time turning on the computer, wait for the OS to load, wait a VSTi host load, manage dozens, hundreds of files, etc,

It’s the exact same thing with hardware.. I waste time turning on the main keyboard, turning on the MIDI hub, setting it to the right patch, walking over & turning on the mixer, walking back and turning on the power amp… by the time I’m done with all that, Ableton with Kore is loaded and ready.

synthlogic - 09 September 2009 04:30 AM

Provided they pay for the software they’re using. I’ve heard too many stories about young home studio “musicians” with a $99 keyboard controller and thousands of dollars worth of pirated software.

As far as people using pirate versions of software, unless we are talking a $30 item, the standard in these days of fluffware seems to be to try a bootleg first, then buy the real thing only if the product proves worthwhile indeed. Due to the mechanics of copy protection which often hampers re-authorization once the legal copy is purchased, the latter often goes on the shelf for display and the bootleg keeps being used for actual production. I believe certain major software companies have grasped and addressed this well (I’m not going to delve on the “who” and “how”.) Companies which did not seem to go out of business with amazing predictability (and I’m not going to delve on the “who” either… RIP). The world has changed out there, and trying to stop this change is as futile as trying to stop the cycle of seasons. We’ll all need to find a way to adapt to it to stay alive.

I’m still thinking on how do I deal with this at my musician’s end. Songs are even easier than software to copy and pirate, and copy protection probably won’t be the answer for music either; it’s a dead end. Unlike software which occasionally needs support and possibly upgrades, once a song is pirated, right now nothing really motivates the user in any way to buy the real product. He won’t get better sound quality, a more exhilarating experience or extra features, or whatever. I think something along those lines could be the real answer. Prosecution never seems to work too well. We have laws, jails and law enforcement since 4000+ years, yet crime haven’t tapered off since that time. It actually seems to be more massive and widespread today. Nations that decriminalize certain things seems to fare no better or worse overall that those which don’t.

I have a studio with hardware and software in it.

Hardware:

Korg Triton
Korg Trinity
Kurzweil K2500
Yamaha SY85
Yamaha ES7
Yamaha S90
Yamaha XS
Roland VS2480
Fostex D2424
Mackie 8-bus
Roland TD-8 drumkit
60 Rack units worth of misc outboard (multi-FX, compressors, patchbays, CD recorders, matsering processors blah blah)
Yamaha MSP-7 Studio monitors
Mordaunt-Short hi-fi speakers
B&W;5:1 surround system with a Marantz A/V amp/video processor
Hohner headless bass guitar
Steinberg headless guitar
Yamaha Drop-6 guitar
A small forest of guitar pedals and pedalboards
Miscellaneous microphones and small footprint preamps/mixers
More cabling than you even want to think about
Apogee Converters
Jazzmutant Lemur
Mac Pro + Dual 27” monitors

Software:
Logic Pro 9
Arturia 10 year collection
Omnisphere
Various other plugins

Women like the hardware. I get singer/songwriters in all the time - they do respond well to a wall full of hardware workstations.

Most of the time I use the XS as a sound source, throwing in the occasional patch from a Korg or the Kurzy when I know it’ll work.

But, really, if all you want to do impress girls, the best way to do it in a musical/studio context is a wall full of keyboards. Double points when you all get a bit drunk and then do some nice improvisation where you have several workstations going at once and jump between them to keep the groove going.

That, and keep a clean and tidy house and be able to use and play the hardware, plus be ready to walk out anytime and go interact with them in their environment, which may or may not be musical ;-)

Df.

Dreamflight - 03 March 2010 11:11 AM

But, really, if all you want to do impress girls, the best way to do it in a musical/studio context is a wall full of keyboards. Double points when you all get a bit drunk and then do some nice improvisation where you have several of them going at once and jump between them to keep the groove going.
Df.

right, then turn off the lights and boogie…

It can free you from a pesky noisy computer.
And you actually own your workstation (Good old capitalism).

Vs Software synths etc,which you are only permitted to use under certain circumstances,after you’ve signed away your rights.

My friend has a number of EastWest Quantom Leap programs, and there are some great sounds in there if you can fully master them. But they’re harder to work with.

At first I wanted them, but then I began tweeking the Motif XS sounds in stock and found that I was getting incredible results. In the performance mode, I can layer four orchestra parts, eq and play with frequencies, cutoff, release ...etc on each, and come up with a phenominal layered sound. So when I play a linear track, it sounds as rich and full as EWQL.

Not only can I lay them down in the sequencer, I can swap in alternative sounds on the fly in the playback, subbing a flute for the string part, testing all sorts of combinations without replaying that track. 

It’s a faster way towards immediate gratification once you learn how to tweek the parameters.

There are a billion possible sounds in that machine, far more than anyone would need in a lifetime, and that’s just playing around with the waves in the XS.

The EWQL Hollywood Strings sound great. So, I’m not knocking soft synths. However, in a lifetime, if I had nothing but the Motif XS, I could never exhaust the full potential of that machine.

Then again, I’m a tweaker by nature, one rarely satisfied with stock sounds. Or even stock arps. The arps are also very tweakable, slowing down or speeding up, or changing the beat and accent points. The same is possible with the string arps, bass arps, taking the existing and making it completely different and your own.

One aspect of hardware vs. software that has not been covered in this topic thread is live performance. I do a solo act and put together songs at home using the internal sequencer using the Motif voices, WAV files for additional voices loaded into the sampler, and sound effects that are not resident in the ROM of my Motif. Any voices and sound FX are saved with each song and are loaded with my song(s) when I gig. I prefer having everything I am using in my sequences on board one KB; no additional wires to connect to external devices or a computer in a dark night club. Setup is quicker with less stress. I play along with my sequences and sing.

My Motif ES8 has been 100 percent reliable in over 5 years of playing music on this workstation. I use it every day, and play gigs on weekends, on occasion. I’ve gotten to know the instrument well enough to use it for what I bought it for efficiently. I have edited some of the factory presets more to my personal taste and have saved them in the USER banks, backed them up to USB Flash drives, and load them when I turn on my equipment right before sound check. Simple, reliable, and it paid for itself years ago from gig money. My local Yamaha dealer knows the product, their tech can fix anything, and will give me a loaner if this KB ever fails. Can’t beat that with a stick.

Mike T.