Wondering out loud:

Just how important is it to give helpful feedback to musician’s who post music on websites or send you their latest masterpiece and ask you for your opinion? I mean, do you make more of an attempt to be kind or to be nice?

I’m convinced the majority of us try an be nice by telling them it’s good, great, ready for the radio. Often, it’s not the kind thing to do.

Ages ago, my dad (excited about the demos hot off my 4 track) imposed upon one of his best friends, asking him to have his brother give it a listen (Chris Jasper, a keyboardist with the Isley Brothers). His less than impressed reaction and the phrase (uhmmm, it’s just, uhmm, not ready!), all while looking repulsed, infuriated my dad and, after he conveyed the message, literally crushed me.

I was like those singer’s in total denial, swearing they can sing even after Simon Cowell has called them horrible or the worst ever… I was obstinate; I was adamant! I was fired up! He didn’t know what the heck he was talking about. A couple of days passed…

Then I calmed down, at least enough to give another listen to my demo. And for the first time, I gave my music an objective listen:

it was crap…

- well meaning, well intentioned crap!

That sequence of events changed my life musically. I knew I had talent. But, the music lacked proper structure. There was no groove; no definition. The drum machine droned mindlessly, playing the same exact fills in every song (ballads and uptempo)… It was overwhelmingly dark. Perhaps, even- morbid, certainly depressing. My concept of theory, chord structure, melody, harmony were all weak. Some of these things took years to correct and perfect to the point where I was honestly proud of the things I was writing and playing.

About a year ago, I was asked to sing at a friend’s funeral. Her husband wanted it upbeat and uplifting. She had always been a ‘fan’ of my music. I sang to a couple of tracks of original music. After the service, scores of people came to me expressing how much the music blessed them- how they had sung the songs in difficult times of their lives and received strength- inquiring who wrote the songs or, what ‘artist’ had recorded the songs or, who the musician’s were on the CD- wanting to by a CD, etc…

So anyway, whenever someone shares how much my music has meant to them or, when I am asked to produce or arrange someone’s music, to fix the problems in their mix, to master their recording, to rewrite their string or horn part, to lay down a guitar solo or a keyboard track, or to just give a listen to their demo, I remember the extreme kindness of Chris Jasper who was willing to tell me,

“This is a bunch of crap’.

Your post reminds me of when I was working in the tape duplication
room at Screen Gems EMI Music back in the early 80’s. I had a song on cassette that I had written and I wanted one of the A&R;staffers to listen to it (hey, I figured I was there “on the ground floor” and this would be my chance to get my music through the door).

One day one of the staffers relented and told me he’d listen to
my tape on a lunch break. So we went to his office and he had a listen. At the end of the tune I asked him what he thought, he said, “oh, not bad”. So I pressed ahead and asked, “well, how do you think it compares to, say...Journey or Boston?” He shot back,
“hey, c’mon - you’re talking about Journey and Boston”. Which
I took to mean, “your song is crap”.

I swore from that day that I’d learn to be a better songwriter and engineer my own tracks as well. It took me about 16 years before I
felt I could actually stop apologizing for my music. Two years ago
the CD I wrote and produced, “Whut4”, got the “Unsigned Artist of the Month” commendation and a great review in Keyboard magazine.

It takes a lot for musicians to step outside of their egos and
look at their music from the perspective of someone who isn’t
invested in it. It’s hard to ask yourself, if this was someone else’s track, would it resonate with me at all? Would I consider
it on a par with my favorite artists? Many musicians never get
beyond their own self-delusion.

When it comes to assessing other people’s material at their request, I’m always blunt and honest about it. I also qualify
my remarks with, “hey, you asked for my honest opinion, and that’s
what it is - my opinion”. If I see any possibilities for the music,
I’ll suggest what it might be “when it grows up to become a song”.

There are also times when people have brought me stuff which knocked me out. Usually I ask if I can produce them at that point.

When I restrict myself to Motifator:

Some time in the past I, carefully, dared to comment that a posted
song was not very special compared to all others posted.
The source started to scream and shout, as far as possible by this medium.

Since then I listen to posted songs and, when I’m touched, I may
reply that I am; if not I keep silent.

I’m sure that the songs by myself that I rate mediocre will be
welcomed and my songs I consider ‘masterpieces’ will be ignored
or even criticised.
That happens to the big artists, so why not to me?

The problem is that no one can judge him/her-self and that
almost no one is prepared for bad responses.
You must not alone learn to play but also learn to overcome critics.

;JOOP!

Offering an opinion is often tempered by the situation.  On a site like this, you tend to be forgiving and encouraging, as the material is likely provided by an amateur hoping to hone his hobby and produce material that resembles acceptable.  More often it’s a celebration that they have developed some new recording skill or have overcome some technological challenge and are looking for positive feedback on their accomplishment.

In contrast, an artist’s website is often a form of marketing their original material hoping to attract a buyer/producer/investor to further their ambition, project or music career. A key difference likely being that, it’s a professional who is focused and ‘going for it’ as a business proposition.  In this situation, rejection and how it is managed is part of the experience.

You may recall Jimmy Lenner, a New York record exec, who rejected Madonna back when she was ‘going for it’ in the mid-late 70’s.  He recognized she had talent, but took a pass on recording her, primarily due to the material she was marketing at the time.  Hind sight is 20/20… the rest, is history.  Madonna staved off that and other rejection only to reinvent herself several times over the years.

Ideas and original compositions in general are like children.  We like our own the best. No one generally wants to know their kids are ugly.  However, when you put yourself out there and ask for opinions, you need to be prepared for both the encouragement when it’s sub-par, or the bitter rejection of the ‘professional opinion’ and be willing to pick yourself up, sharpen the saw and reinvent yourself and material for the next rejection.

The hobbyist will withdrawl into basement obscurity and perform Wednesday and Thursdays at the local tavern. The next [insert your favorite artist here] will dust themselves off and package themselves up to perform at the next audition.  Many will get caught in between.  Some, like myself will bask in the joy and spirit of the music, thankful for the gift and content with being in the moment.

Perfectly expressed and worded.

;JOOP!

Wot TBone said..... LOL

I think he hits it on the head, this place generally is full of enthusiastic amateurs trying to improve their knowledge of both music and their equipment. We are lucky enough to be blessed with the likes of Bad_Mister and others here who are the real professionals and help us all along our way.

There’s nothing wrong with a little honesty here, but be gentle with us. I think there a rare few here that are really looking to “ Make it big “, the rest of us just want to produce some good music for our own well being. So there’s no need for the hard edged “ your sound is crap - NEXT !!! “. I think that’s also the key. Very few people here have a problem with CONSTRUCTIVE critisism, its informative, its helpful, it helps us grow musically and move to the next level. A blatent hard dressing down with no real pointers behind it just gets people’s backs up, there’s no need for it.

To Sum up - Honesty is fine, but make it constructive.

I love stuff like this, I mean the honesty and all.
It’s good to have an ear to bleed with the crap we produce/create..LOL
As I look back over the past five or six years, I am more thankful for the development of my musical skills,,even though it’s still very sub par in my on personal view.

I’ve gotten good replies from members here, and some bad ones.
THINKING,,,one of the worst songs I’ve ever dropped in MoSongs, was TOTALLY SHOT DOWN...a poster called “The Truth” god bless him/her. LOL

I laugh because, well in MoSongs, someone must have liked the horrific song, for it got over 700 hits.
On SOUNDCLICK,, it went to number two on the RnB, and Pop charts.
As I listen to the song, by which I created at three o’clock in the morning,,,IT WAS AND STILL IS HORRIBLE...lol

What does that tell you, when even you don’t like your own creation, but LOTS of people love it?
My worst song ever, turns out the be my best song ever?
There’s something very wrong with this, and how do we fix it, or can it even be fixed?

The radio stations for instance, play some horrible music, imo,,and force bleed our ears with it,,but it sells.
I’ve hear great tracks over the internet, but not on air,,so I guess the artist is not getting paid.

Is this to say, “One man’s cake, is another man’s pie?
Does opinion matter?
Sure it does, but how much?
I like hearing/reading that my track is totally awsome, but, when I’m sober, and I listen, the track sounds like crap, and even I would not buy it...LOL

Tracks I’ve created that sound to my ears like crap, and I post anyway, some people love it..so go figure.
MOTIFATOR is great in this retrospect,,one can get help, and ideas for self musical improvement.
Awsome concept I think, so thanks Yamaha and Keyfax, and AP.

Oh, and that horrible/good song I’m so happy to have created, is called “A Better Way.”
Next best/worst song is called “You Don’t Love Me.” number eight on soundclick,,,go figure.
One pop, the other rock, done by the funk master. LOL

Hey, IT IS EARLY.

Excellent comments:

I agree that there is never any need to be overtly ‘harsh’ with a person, particularly when dealing with an amateur. I was an amateur at the time my private demo was absconded and given to the professional for review. And, I also attempt to be constructive. I fancy myself an encourager… But, there is a vast difference in opinion (as it relates to musical tastes) and evaluation of talent, skill, writing, arrangement, mix, etc… My brother and I had an enormous rock collection when I was a teen. While I wouldn’t think of listening to any of it now, all the songs reflected talent, skill creativity, etc… (Well, perhaps with the exception of Neil Young; no just kidding!) :)

Example: there are millions of kids playing basketball. Some for years, others for a few months. Some well coached, others from the playground, others having practiced to AND1 videos. Some with God given ability, others the product of a never give up work ethic, some just wanted to be on a team. And they play all kinds of styles: run and gun; pound it into the paint; press defense; zone; man to man. The fact is the majority of those kids think they have a shot at the NBA. The truth is: the overwhelming majority don’t even have a prayer of playing in college. Should they give up BBall? Not at all!. My pick-up games with my son are the joy of my life… But, one day I had to tell him- “the success of your life in your head and not your athleticism”, rather basketball ain’t it kid, go read a book…

I’ve also written songs that I didn’t care for that others received well. But, the fact that I personally didn’t like the final product did not mean it was not properly arranged or lacked musicianship. A friend had me sit in on his band’s rehearsal as they ran through their set of originals: all instrumentals by the way. There was no ‘B’ section; no bridge; no intros; only an occasional ending. In reality, none of the ‘songs’ contained a melody.

In other words, it was a jam session! But, it wasn’t song writing. He said, “I just wrote a song”. But, what he meant was, “Check out these chords”. Nice chords! Really, they were some very nice chords…

Hey, I’m not wanting to quell anyone’s enthusiasm. My greatest work has occurred within a week of getting my Kurzweil, my Roland MBD-1, my Motif 8 Classic, my Rack ES, my XS8, my MOTU Symphonic, etc… I love running into the studio as the hours melt away; and the feeling of ‘I just had a baby’ that compels me to compel others to listen this new cut…

In the end: skill, talent, training have to be married and that is the process that takes years to master. Anyway, while I’ve only listened to one song from Motifator.com, I interact with a lot of young musician’s and I hope to encourage them to begin to ask the same questions I do about my writing…

peace…

Wow, this is a (EXCELLENT) topic!

Just how important is it to give helpful feedback to musician’s who post music on websites or send you their latest masterpiece and ask you for your opinion?

I think it’s important to try to discourage this thing altogether. Not only do I not “give feedback”, I never listen at all. Get off the Internet and try to live in the real world.

Hi Scotch, Anger is not your portion!
As a true proverb goes: If you have nothing good to say, then say nothing at all. Right?

I guess the sobering fact is, it does not matter if your a double platinum seller or a home enthusiast.
everyone isn’t going to like your music, and most of the time people do not like comment on what they don’t like.

Here’s a good one: Ford, GM , Chrysler, and Imports take your pick!(LOL)

scotch - 15 March 2009 07:49 PM

I think it’s important to try to discourage this thing altogether. Not only do I not “give feedback”, I never listen at all. Get off the Internet and try to live in the real world.

LOL discourage it huh? This reply made me chuckle.

In the 5 or 6 years ive been posting here, I’ve heard possibly 4 mo’songs I thought were professional grade and listenable. Most of them are slow ambient music that does not impress me. Im sure the handful ive posted didnt impress anyone either.

Its fun guys! The real world… not so much

OK here’s my two cents worth.

I agree with most if not all of the comments posted thus far.  However, having lived and performed extensively in both Europe and Asia as well as here in the U.S., I have come to the conclusion much like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Music is in “Ear” of the beholder.  For example, as an American living and playing in Japan, I had to learn to sing some of my song’s in Japanese.  I can’t tell you how many times a Japanese listner would tell me that my singing and music sounded “So Japanese” that they did not know it was an American singing and playing until they actually entered the performacne hall.

Another point has to to with perception and/or the lack thereof.  Most listners are satisfied being looked into and listening to one particular genre.  They never let their ears explore the wonder’s of the musical universe.  This lack of exposure does not allow for them to expand their horizons and learn to appreciate other genre’s of music to their full potential. 

A good example of this can be found in a CD of the late Eva Cassidy.  Some of you may have never heard of her, so here is a Wikipedia link that cover’s her bio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_cassidy.  You can also go to You Tube and find most of a video concert shot at Blues Alley shortly before she died.

I came across her by accident when I happened to be in a K-Mart that was closing down and there was this stack of CD’s marked down to like $1.  I picked up the Eva Cassidy CD and thought I couldn’t go wrong since it was only $1.  When I got to the car, I put the CD in and headed home.  By the third song on the CD, I found myself speeding to get home to get on the web to see when she would be appearding near me.  Sadly, I learned that she had passed away a fews years earlier.

Now for the moral of this story.  Below is a quote from Wikipedia on Ms. Cassidy. 

In May 2001, ABC’s Nightline in the United States broadcast a well-received short documentary about Cassidy.  Over the weekend, all five of Cassidy’s albums occupied Amazon.com’s best sellers list top spots.  The Nightline episode has since been rebroadcast three times due to popular demand.  Producer Leroy Sievers has said that it is “probably the most popular Nightline ever”.  In December, a nine-minute segment on NPR resulted in a similar sales surge, with five of the top seven spots going to Cassidy. A rebroadcast of the Tonight with Trevor McDonald feature on Cassidy in Britain also bumped up sales.

I was fortunate enough to catch one of the Nightline reruns on Cassidy in 2003.  I was especially taken with comments made by Bruce Lundvall, CEO of Blue Note Records who told of how during a meeting with Eva in his office at which she performed and played some of her music, he relunctantly declined to sign her and to this day regrets that decision (as has been the case for many now successful artists).  It seemed to him that her style and abilities were not the flavor of the day/week/year.

In closing, I feel that if sought by an individual, constructive and honest critques can be of help across the board.  Taken in the right frame of mind, they can only make one stronger.  Sites and threads like Motifator help to serve a purpose to the general buying public at large.

I have been fortunated to have had some of my music played for and accepted by noted producers and engineers from around the world.  While thay have encouraged me to go on tour and launch a CD, at this point and time in my life I don’t desire to become a star, or sell a million records.  Thus for me it becomes a priority as to why am I writing in the first place.  For me my priority is to simply have some fun and acheive a personal level of satisfaction.  As long as I am happy with what I create, the opinions of the reat of the world are secondary.  Popularity is other people liking your music.  Happiness is you liking your music.

I have an associate who is a fromer Disney senior executive and is now a professor at one of the largest universities in Florida.  Each semester he has his students to bring in their IPOD’s, CD’s, etc, to gauge what they are listening too.  He said, each semster he is totally surprised because what he thinks that they would be listening to based on pop culture and current music trends, is just the opposite.  Everything from music from China, Russia, Africa to Monks chanting on a hill side.  His point is that music is universal and tastes as to what is in or is current are constantly evolving and changing.

Posting of songs for comments is not for everyone, which is why there is probably not as many posts on this site as there could be, but it certainly has been a help to me hearing what other folks are doing.  Louis Armstrong once said that “If you have to ask what Jazz is, you will never know”.  As new music is created and posted here by users and as distrbution techonolgy continues to evolve, there may come a day when all music created by composers around the world is realtive, whether the music is good, bad or indifferent.

In the old forum about 4000 (!) songs were posted.
I didn’t listen to them all but I guess some 10% is worth keeping
them for another listen.
Some posters sent in little masterpieces.

;JOOP!