Mighty Motif Max - 01 October 2018 01:13 PM

4. And this one to me is the most important omission of all. Weak MIDI implementation. You can’t set multiple sounds to the same midi channel to be played by an external keyboard while having a separate set of sounds on the main keyboard. Very poor in my opinion.

As I said in an email to Yamaha a few years ago, in my opinion, I think that if they released the Montage as sort of an upgraded stage piano and also had a Motif-successor as the flagship with the features listed above plus or minus the Montage goodies, everything would be fine.

I don’t understand this completely.
What do you mean more precisely?

I mean, the parts can also use separate midi channels in Performance mode at MODX (versus a Motif)!
O.Manual - page 49

I decided to take the plunge. :-) Comments and more at:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-modx-snap-review/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/modx-effects-screen-capture/

All the best—pj

5pinDIN - 29 September 2018 09:01 AM

some possible names for new Yamaha synths, that could relate to their true nature:
-
Money - Acknowledges pricing of certain recent models

That would be the Mo’-Money.

lastmonk - 29 September 2018 07:57 PM

The Montage/ MoDX is not Motif. It is not an upgrade from a Motif. A Montage is at best a downgrade from the Motif, and the MODX is certainly a downgrade from the MOX/MOXF.

The Montage/MoDX lacks:

Full Sequencer
Pattern Sequencer
Integrated Sampler (and basic granular synth capability)
Voice Mode
Master Mode
MiX Mode
Song Mode
The Classic Motif Software Interface

Lack of something that was in an earlier Motif does not prevent something from being a Motif (e.g. the XS and later lacked compatibility with the PLG expansion boards)

Many derivative models (MX, etc.) are still discussed here as Motif variations even though they, too, lack many of the things you’ve listed.

Although the Montage/MODX did eliminate all those modes (which often confused people), they can still do almost all the same things you could do in Voice, Master, and Mix modes.

lastmonk - 29 September 2018 07:57 PM

the Motif owner can quickly get a FM Softsynth add it to Cubase and create whatever FM sounds they want, and simply use the integrated sampler of the Motif to Sample those sounds and then add them to its library of voices.  Or get FM sounds from the many many sample libraries out there.

Sampled version of FM sounds do not fully behave as FM sounds do, i.e. how they can change over time, etc. If you’re gigging, having an FM synth in your board is very different from having samples of FM sounds.

Mighty Motif Max - 01 October 2018 01:13 PM

I had the opportunity to choose between a brand new Montage or a brand new Motif XF. I chose the XF. Four things truly differentiate the Montage from the Motif XF for my usage case.

1. No sequencer other than a quick “scratchpad”, which means that even to record a quick multi-track idea, you need to have a computer with you all the time.

I believe you can create a multi-track idea with the internal performance recorder. What you can’t do is the more advanced editing of what you’ve recorded.

Mighty Motif Max - 01 October 2018 01:13 PM

2. No sampling.

True. Though in most cases, this really is something that is much simpler to do on the computer.

Mighty Motif Max - 01 October 2018 01:13 PM

3. Because the Montage is always in “Performance Mode” essentially, somehow one piano sound can take up eight “parts” of your 16 part performance.

All the same one-part sounds (the Voices) of the Motif XF are still available (and more?), and those will still just take up one part of a Performance. What they have done essentially is added new “multi-Voice” sounds (to use Motif parlance) to allow for more versatility (e.g. a single sound can now have more than 8 elements). So yes, the CFX Grand takes up 4 parts instead of 1, and it has more refinements than what could be created in a single part sound (18 elements, etc.). But you can stick with single-part sounds if you want (and have all the same sounds you have on an XF), and you can put 16 of those in a Performance (8 internally playable a once). In short, the fact that the Montage/MODX has “Single Instrument Multi-Part Performances” (individual sounds that are generated from multiple parts) does not take away the more Motif-like “single-part” single instrument capabilities, it just adds something new.

So getting back to exactly what you said, yes, a single sound can take up more than one part of a Performance, but that is not because the Montage is always in Performance mode, it is because they have added new sounds that require more capability than what could have been done within a single XF voice. Which again speaks to how so much of the Montage is still built on a Motif foundation. If they wanted to create single sounds beyond what they had been able to do in the context of a single 8-element voice, they could have come up with a whole new system. Instead, they did it by ganging up multiple instances of the old 8-element architecture. And that’s why they take up multiple Parts.

Mighty Motif Max - 01 October 2018 01:13 PM

4. And this one to me is the most important omission of all. Weak MIDI implementation. You can’t set multiple sounds to the same midi channel to be played by an external keyboard while having a separate set of sounds on the main keyboard.

I think it over-states things to say it has a weak MIDI implementation, if it is only missing this one thing, compared to the MIDI implementation of the XF. But I agree that it is unfortunate that, in a 16-part Performance, you can’t specify which channel you want for each part (as you were able to do in a Mix). Especially in the context of what we were talking about above, i.e. you may want to play a piano sound that has 4 parts, and afaik, you won’t be able to play that sound from an external board (while playing other sounds from the internal keys) unless your external board can transmit on 4 channels at once (or you do something like route the second board through an iOS app that can do things like route one channel of MIDI input to multiple channels of MIDI output).

Anyway, sure, the Motif XF can do some things the Montage/MODX can’t. And older Motifs could do things that newer Motifs couldn’t. Some people didn’t want to upgrade from the XS to the XF because you couldn’t put as much RAM into it. It’s always something! I just think it’s kind of a shame that Motifator would prefer that Montage/MODX folks take their discussions elsewhere, when so much of the new line is really an extension of the Motif legacy and is something many Motif users may eventually be moving to, even if some features have disappeared, especially now with all its XF compatibility. I think a Montage/MODX section here would be nice, and those who don’t want to access it don’t have to.

ETA: I see this is addressed at http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/480696/

djuice - 03 October 2018 06:38 AM

Mighty Motif Max - 01 October 2018 01:13 PM

4. And this one to me is the most important omission of all. Weak MIDI implementation. You can’t set multiple sounds to the same midi channel to be played by an external keyboard while having a separate set of sounds on the main keyboard. Very poor in my opinion.

As I said in an email to Yamaha a few years ago, in my opinion, I think that if they released the Montage as sort of an upgraded stage piano and also had a Motif-successor as the flagship with the features listed above plus or minus the Montage goodies, everything would be fine.

I don’t understand this completely.
What do you mean more precisely?

Anotherscott explained it a few posts below, but I will reiterate it. What I mean is that if I want to have, for example, piano on the bottom keyboard and brass plus a synth split with a pad on the upper, I can’t. You cannot change the midi channel assignment of parts on the MODX or Montage. One sound per midi channel only except for the internal keybed.

anotherscott - 11 October 2018 09:25 AM

…

Mighty Motif Max - 01 October 2018 01:13 PM

3. Because the Montage is always in “Performance Mode” essentially, somehow one piano sound can take up eight “parts” of your 16 part performance.

All the same one-part sounds (the Voices) of the Motif XF are still available (and more?), and those will still just take up one part of a Performance. What they have done essentially is added new “multi-Voice” sounds (to use Motif parlance) to allow for more versatility (e.g. a single sound can now have more than 8 elements). So yes, the CFX Grand takes up 4 parts instead of 1, and it has more refinements than what could be created in a single part sound (18 elements, etc.). But you can stick with single-part sounds if you want (and have all the same sounds you have on an XF), and you can put 16 of those in a Performance (8 internally playable a once). In short, the fact that the Montage/MODX has “Single Instrument Multi-Part Performances” (individual sounds that are generated from multiple parts) does not take away the more Motif-like “single-part” single instrument capabilities, it just adds something new…

Which again brings up the question, if you work in a way that needs those capabilities, why get a Montage instead of a second-hand Motif or MOXF etc, since the new sounds aren’t necessarily going to work with your needs?

Mighty Motif Max - 11 October 2018 09:10 PM

Which again brings up the question, if you work in a way that needs those capabilities, why get a Montage instead of a second-hand Motif or MOXF etc, since the new sounds aren’t necessarily going to work with your needs?

I guess the answer comes down to how much you value the other things the Montage/MODX bring to the table. That is, if you don’t care about the new multi-part sounds that aren’t already in the Motif XF/MOXF, the question would be, does the Montage/MODX still do enough other things for you that you’d be willing to compromise on the things it no longer does as well as the Motif XF/MOXF. Those things including the seamless sound switching, the new touchscreen interface (with Live Sets), the FM synth, the superknob, and on the MODX, a lightweight 76 (something that didn’t exist in the MOXF series). But also, even if you largely stick with the single-part MOXF sounds, it’s still nice to have the option of using the new multi-part sounds as well, in those cases where using those extra parts doesn’t clash with something else you want to do.

But yeah, nothing does everything, and a Motif XF or MOXF may still serve someone better, whether for the sequencer functions, the better support for an external MIDI controller, whatever…

musomarkyboy - 25 September 2018 05:50 AM

For all the MOXF owner/users out there who may upgrade to the MODX.
For those techos -Some help in detailed instructions on how to transfer/migrate MOXF Voice libraries and User Performance to MODX would be great if anyone can assist.

See https://yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/moving-from-moxf-to-modx

@anotherscott I understand your pain.  The Motif has been discontinued, and its hard for those left with only the option of the Montage family of keyboards to feel part of the party. I get that. But sometimes that’s just how the cookie crumbles.

For now Yamaha has decided to move away from the “Workstation Synthesizer” which is represented well by the Motif and toward the “Performance Synthesizer” which is represent well by the Montage.

Accept the Montage/MO-DX for what they are and realize what they are not. They are not Motif.  For my money they are not even close!

Keep in mind that the PLG expansion board that you referenced were optional in the early Motif and were not part of the core definition of the Motif workflow.  So the core definition of Motif was not changed when future versions of Motif left out the expansion board option. On the other hand the fact that Montage leaves out full sequencing and sampling is a deal breaker and redefines the basic concept.  Yamaha had to change the name because Montage is a different concept altogether!

@anotherscott to your point on gigs and sampled FM.  I am a gigging musician. I do happily gig with sampled FM.  Any real gigging musician knows how hard it is to cut through the mix with any clarity.  99.9999% of the audiences I play for couldn’t tell you the difference between the sound of ‘properly’ sampled FM vs realtime Analog FM if the prize was 100k. Most ordinary people can’t! Especially once the onstage mix get done with it.  Perhaps in a studio situation with highly experienced synth lovers.  But that’s not what’s going on in a live context.  So anotherscott your statement on sampled FM is on very shaky ground. Are you really familiar with how capable the Motif is with sampled sounds?  It’s a FN Beast.

I know there is a difference between sampled FM and not sampled FM.  The question is what is the practical difference.  Can that difference be discerned by the typical audience in a live situation.  Can you tell the difference in a live situation?  Unless you’re in a very freakish minority the answer is you can’t tell the difference!

My point remains:

From a “practical” perspective the Motif’s sampling capability easily compensates for the FM capability that the Montage has.  And I get to keep my full sequencer and other Motif capabilities.

Yamaha assumes Montage owners will add Cubase to complete the picture.

But look at this way:  The Motif is the complete deal without Cubase.  It can be used as both a workstation synthesizer and a performance synthesizer. From where I stand the the Montage is not even a complete performance synthesizer without Cubase.

I was lucky enough to have the choice between a brand new MotifXF8 and a Montage 8.  I had the money, Sweetwater still had new Motif stock, and I took a very hard look at the what the Montage had to offer.  I chose Motif.  If I had it to do over again I would choose Motif a thousand times over.

Even the name ‘Montage’ sux and is a downgrade.  The dreary looking touch screen on the Montage looks like a touch screen I’ve seen on my local grocery store cash registers.  Personally (as you can probably tell) I don’t like Montage.  The touch screen interface in my estimation lacks the ‘musical metaphor’.

In my honest opinion, Yamaha should go back to the drawing board on their new synthesizer flagship.  Everything from feature set to the name to the look and feel of the user interface needs to be reworked.
If they’re really truly trying to come up with something that replaces the Motif they still have a lot of work to do.

I’m going out on a limb to propose that monk shouldn’t get a Montage nor modx.  He might even want to consider conversion to Korg

The midi implementation is limiting for some, agree.  There are workarounds for most situations but I don’t know why channel assignment by part isn’t allowed either.  But when we get to the point of bitching about the name, sort of indicates we’re about done here.

I just got a MODX7, it’s pretty awesome.  It doesn’t do a small handful of fourth dimension crap some need but it does dimensions 1-3 a lot better and easier than Motif / MOXF.  And it comes in a 7!

motidave - 16 October 2018 09:48 AM

I’m going out on a limb to propose that monk shouldn’t get a Montage nor modx.  He might even want to consider conversion to Korg

The midi implementation is limiting for some, agree.  There are workarounds for most situations but I don’t know why channel assignment by part isn’t allowed either.  But when we get to the point of bitching about the name, sort of indicates we’re about done here.

I just got a MODX7, it’s pretty awesome.  It doesn’t do a small handful of fourth dimension crap some need but it does dimensions 1-3 a lot better and easier than Motif / MOXF.  And it comes in a 7!

No worries.  I roll with the Motif XF8.  I have a MOX 8 also.  I’m happy with both.  I’m just having a little fun with anotherscott.

Not bitchin about the name.  Its just an observation.  The Motif is a kewl name for a synth, and Montage is a not so kewl name for a synth.  Of course its just my opinion.

I’m glad you’re happy with your MODX7.  And you’re correct, Montage and MODX7 are not for me.  You are also right in the sense that if something ever happened to my Motif XF8 and I couldn’t get it fixed, and I couldn’t find one used anywhere in the world for any price, then I probably would very sadly at least consider the Korg Kronos.  But before I’d do even that, I’d exhaust sources for a MOXF8.  Nope I wouldn’t even consider the Montage family.  LOL

Good luck with your MODX7!

Cheers!

Perhaps Montage was named in recognition of the operating system. Recent models (including the XS and XF) run on MontaVista Linux.  :-)

http://download.yamaha.com/sourcecodes/synth/

5pinDIN - 16 October 2018 12:51 PM

Perhaps Montage was named in recognition of the operating system. Recent models (including the XS and XF) run on MontaVista Linux.  :-)

http://download.yamaha.com/sourcecodes/synth/

Great., LOL!  But it looks like Motif runs on Linux which just happens to be my main operating system.  But from that site it looks like Montage doesn’t use Monta Vista Linux.

Is that correct?

Don’t tell me Montage is running on Windoze :-O

I know for certain that the XS and XF have the Toshiba TX4939 processor running MontaVista Linux.
http://staging.mvista.com/download/case_study_MontaVista_Linux_and_Yamaha.pdf

I’ve read that the Montage has a Texas Instruments AM335x Cortex A8, also running MontaVista Linux. I’m not certain that it’s MontaVista, but TI indicates the processor supports high level operating systems - Linux and Android can be had from TI at no charge. See http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/am3358.pdf
Also note mention of MontaVista under “Available Tools” in http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/Cortex-A8

As to other OS possibilities, for the Toshiba processor (Motif XS and XF) see the attachment. Apparently Windows CE.NET was an alternative.

Toshiba - 05B08_TX4939.pdf  (File Size: 259KB - Downloads: 502)