DmitryKo - 11 February 2016 04:36 PM

[...]today in 2016 a 16 GByte NAND flash memory chip is US$5.[...]

Not true for the type fast enough to stream sample data from.

A 16Gbit (not GByte) chip is about US$15 in small numbers. In manufacturing quantities, it still might not get down to US$5 per unit. Multiply by 8 for 16GByte. Then multiply again by a few times for profit by Yamaha, distributors, and dealers.

5pinDIN - 11 February 2016 06:37 PM

DmitryKo - 11 February 2016 04:36 PM

[...]today in 2016 a 16 GByte NAND flash memory chip is US$5.[...]

Not true for the type fast enough to stream sample data from.

A 16Gbit (not GByte) chip is about US$15 in small numbers. In manufacturing quantities, it still might not get down to US$5 per unit. Multiply by 8 for 16GByte. Then multiply again by a few times for profit by Yamaha, distributors, and dealers.

With research and development costs of these units being many many times higher, its so wrong to try and save a few dollars on the hardware… The difference between the current 8 Gbyte and the wished for 16 Gbyte is €40....

They could also add some extra processing power, for €20 and have double the processing, meaning for a €60 hardware investment, they could add 32 channels instead of 16 with double the polyphony and 4 engines instead of 2..  ( well… And thats where i go wrong, adding more engines adds much much more costs then those few dollars in hardware)

Edit: and then its not even adding the extra engines that costs most money, because they have AN and VL engines ready for implementation.. No, its the creation of content for those engines that really adds the extra costs…

The biggest problem is the relatively low numbers of these instruments they sell worldwide..  How many Montage’s will they sell in a year?  10.000? Maybe 15.000? Worldwide

lordbachus - 11 February 2016 06:52 PM

5pinDIN - 11 February 2016 06:37 PM

DmitryKo - 11 February 2016 04:36 PM

[...]today in 2016 a 16 GByte NAND flash memory chip is US$5.[...]

Not true for the type fast enough to stream sample data from.

A 16Gbit (not GByte) chip is about US$15 in small numbers. In manufacturing quantities, it still might not get down to US$5 per unit. Multiply by 8 for 16GByte. Then multiply again by a few times for profit by Yamaha, distributors, and dealers.

With research and development costs of these units being many many times higher, its so wrong to try and save a few dollars on the hardware… The difference between the current 8 Gbyte and the wished for 16 Gbyte is €40....

They could also add some extra processing power, for €20 and have double the processing, meaning for a €60 hardware investment, they could add 32 channels instead of 16 with double the polyphony and 4 engines instead of 2..  ( well… And thats where i go wrong, adding more engines adds much much more costs then those few dollars in hardware)

Edit: and then its not even adding the extra engines that costs most money, because they have AN and VL engines ready for implementation.. No, its the creation of content for those engines that really adds the extra costs…

The biggest problem is the relatively low numbers of these instruments they sell worldwide..  How many Montage’s will they sell in a year?  10.000? Maybe 15.000? Worldwide

I wasn’t defending Yamaha’s decision, just questioning the US$5 cost statement.

However, if anyone thinks that cost of materials (and how that affects the eventual cost to the consumer) isn’t an issue, then I’ll refer you to to posted negative comments about Montage pricing. Unfortunately, not all engineering decisions are made by the engineering department - marketing has a substantial influence.

5pinDIN - 11 February 2016 06:37 PM

Not true for the type fast enough to stream sample data from.

A 16Gbit (not GByte) chip is about US$15 in small numbers.

It’s 2016, not 2008 - we are at 15 nm 2D NAND node right now and 3D (vertical) 48-layer NAND chips are coming soon.

OCZ Trion 150 240 GB is $70 street and uses 16 (sixteen) Toshiba A15 TLC (triple-level cell) 128 Gbit NAND flash RAM chips (p/n TC58TEG7THLTA00) which sustain >300 Mbyte/s random reads in real-world performance tests, using a 8-channel Phison S10 controller - so each 128 Gbit (16 GByte) chip is perfectly able to handle 11 Mbyte/s reads required for 128 streams of 44.1 kHz 16-bit stereo.

DmitryKo - 11 February 2016 08:46 PM

5pinDIN - 11 February 2016 06:37 PM

Not true for the type fast enough to stream sample data from.

A 16Gbit (not GByte) chip is about US$15 in small numbers.

It’s 2016, not 2008 - we are at 15 nm 2D NAND node right now and 3D (vertical) 48-layer NAND chips are coming soon.

OCZ Trion 150 240 GB is $70 street and uses 16 (sixteen) Toshiba A15 TLC (triple-level cell) 128 Gbit NAND flash RAM chips (p/n TC58TEG7THLTA00) which sustain >300 Mbyte/s random reads in real-world performance tests, using a 8-channel Phison S10 controller - so each 128 Gbit (16 GByte) chip is perfectly able to handle 11 Mbyte/s reads required for 128 streams of 44.1 Khz 16-bit stereo.

Now all you have to do is go back in time to when Yamaha was designing the Montage, and give them the future technology.

Increases in NAND flash capacity (and speed) actually outstrip what Moore’s law predicts. However, that doesn’t help the designer, who is always working in their present time. While I have no inside knowledge, I suspect that the Montage has been in development for a few years. Once some basic design choices are made, you’re often locked into certain things, no matter what technological advancements occur.

Perhaps if Yamaha could sell as many Motifs or Montages as Apple sells iPhones, we’d see products developed faster and using very recent technology.

psychobabble - 11 February 2016 09:25 PM

It’s all irrelevant though because you work in a burger bar

Actually I work in a sushi bar and have a degree in electronics. Only one of these statements is true and everything I say is false.

5pinDIN - 11 February 2016 10:49 PM

Now all you have to do is go back in time to when Yamaha was designing the Montage, and give them the future technology.

15 nm TLC NAND from Toshiba has been available for 2 years now. 19 nm TLC NAND has been available from Toshiba since 2011, with the same read speeds and capacities. All flash memories use standard ONFI serial interface and pin layout, so it wouldn’t take a complete redesign to use a bigger/faster chip instead of two smaller/slower ones - a single PCB layout can be used for varying flash chip counts and capacities.

Obviously 19 nm parts had a tad higher price than the quoted $5, but node shrinks and the resulting price reductions are occuring at regular intervals and new process nodes are publicized by NAND flash manufacturers well in advance, so the downward trend has been apparent for a long time.

if Yamaha could sell as many Motifs or Montages as Apple sells iPhones, we’d see products developed faster and using very recent technology

Yamaha sells quite a lot of digital keyboards which use flash for both sample ROM and file storage. Since they are a fabless manufacturer now, they should have a lot of flexibility with choosing the right parts.

So no, I don’t think that LPC compression is really a technological necessity these days - it’s a marketing decision to keep using proprietary compression as a form of DRM protection, to prevent anyone from using downloadable Yamaha samples in 3rd party instruments.

davlippo7 - 10 February 2016 07:24 PM

Memory used to be coveted and scarce and extremely expensive. Thus the “proprietary compression algorithm” was born. Nowadays 4GB of flash is chump change. We all kinda thought that the Montage had somewhere around 8GB but apparently it’s only 4GB. I know it’s high speed but how much more to double that size since it’s not expandable? Somewhere on the budget chopping block it got cut out. This doesn’t make much sense with the money making expansion packs on the way which I expect very similar to the Tyros system in musicsoft.com. “Vintage Keys” due at release along with the Bos piano. How many times over would that doubled flash expenditure have paid dividends to expansion geeks like myself. I’m a sucker for those things. I think I bought 75% of the Tyros 5 expansion packs at $160 to $200 a pop. Now I’m concerned about running out of space and I don’t even own one yet.

1.75gb vs 4gb user space won’t limit what users buy that much. Users who buy sound packs will buy until their cravings/funds are met. Like a car’s trunk size doesn’t appreciably limit your total groceries you buy in a year. Half the trunk size and you just plan more, make more trips.

Guys:
It’s fast write speed and ready to go at 17 sec launch flash. There’s no problem. And the XF’s got 4gb potential.

No problem.
--
I don’t see 4GB’s worth of the Flash that Yamaha has deemed appropriate for its instrument selling for chump change.

psychobabble - 11 February 2016 09:28 PM

Jote.

When you use the toilet, do you have a ’bottom interface defecation scenario‘ or do you just take a dump like everyone else?

Oh good. A poop “joke”. Can we please bring Hitler into this discussion already?

Some new official promotion videos by Yamaha. Haven’t watched them yet

Matt Johnson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0NIZszcZLs

Manuelle Montesanti
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUbE06dLhN4

Don Sigalas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W83fHtxVF4

Thank you Jote for the links ;)

These videos really show what an impressive instrument the Montage is.

Yes, that super knob is going to need replacing if they keep turning it. I bet it’s not cheap. Use the foot pedal instead Dom. Does anyone know if the hood raises up on the Montage like the CP1 and the DX7? So that every internal part doesn’t have to be removed to replace the super knob.

The thing that makes me laugh is that most of the demos that I’ve seen so far are like

“Ok, so here’s this amazing new feature: the SuperKnob. It is so great and so useful - it can control so many parameters at once. And I’m going to show you how it works by not touching it during pretty much the entire presentation and using a pedal instead (even though I’m supposed to use it, because it’s a PRODUCT DEMO) - that’s how useful and well-thought piece of marketing gimmick it is!”

Maybe Blake Angelos didn’t get the memo…

Im very happy right now with the motif xs,cubase 7.5 ,karma.Don’t need a christmas tree thats what the montage reminds me of,,Its for the younger generation that are dazzle by its strobe lights,,it does sound good but not as good as my motif does now...when they come out with a 32bit workstation,if they ever will then i say wonderful but probably would never be able to afford anyways..if you want one buy it..or keep your work station that you have.. BE happy with what you have..its all about your music anyways..So have fun.. its you that will make music sound good or bad a keyboard can only do so much,,But its up to you to express yourself know matter what keyboard you have..

Jote - 12 February 2016 04:16 PM

The thing that makes me laugh is that most of the demos that I’ve seen so far are like

“Ok, so here’s this amazing new feature: the SuperKnob. It is so great and so useful - it can control so many parameters at once. And I’m going to show you how it works by not touching it during pretty much the entire presentation and using a pedal instead (even though I’m supposed to use it, because it’s a PRODUCT DEMO) - that’s how useful and well-thought piece of marketing gimmick it is!”

Maybe Blake Angelos didn’t get the memo…

No, I specifically saw him turn it twice. Once when he said and I quote “This is HUGE!” and that pipe organ thingy. He’s cool but all one hundred of this demonstrations were the same 3 performances. They are the “This is HUGE”, pipe organ thingy and how soft the CFX piano plays. Just kidding though, I did really enjoy his presentations. The super knob will be more appealing to other types of performers obviously.