zpink - 08 February 2015 01:21 PM

Even though feelings are already running a bit high here, there are worse things than Karma out there already:
http://scoremusicinteractive.com ;-)

Not having a dig at Karma here BTW, it’s not for me but I’m sure it’s very useful for others. :-)

This Xhail stuff is pretty ambitious.  zpink , so what’s the real difference between something like the Xhail software and the Motif-Karma software?  They’re both kind-a in the category of real-time music production.  Any thoughts? 

@Dave Polich thanx guy for your feedback and your opinion.  It certainly is a very valid position to have, obviously held by many in the industry and represents the capitalist’s perspective on the topic well.  Your position definitely brings to mind this song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoHtH6OjsUk

kind-of-a-musical-social-darwinism LOL (unemployed trombone player’s you definitely have my sympathies) But its all good.  I’m certainly going to be trying out Motif Karma personally soon,
and after I have tried out sufficiently and getting a better understanding I will throw my 2 cents in.

@lastmonk , do I have any thoughts about these pieces of software?
Nope, not really, I just posted that link since I had seen it posted somewhere and I have been looking at Karma myself out of curiosity, and it IMHO takes it a step further than what Karma does.

I personally only make noise as a hobby (and with no ambitions to even be a particularly good hobbyist). Karma I can understand will appeal to more ambitious players than myself since it is a bit of a band-in-a-box that they have control over, if they’re into the kind of music it appears to cater for.

As a consumer of music (or any other art), I don’t really give a flying f**k about how it was created if the end result appeals to me.
A lot of people will disagree with me here, but I won’t get dragged into any lengthy arguments about it! ;-)

Lets all go and make some noise now. ;-)

It must be a slow night for me to succumb to weighing in on this admittedly interesting but somewhat unanswerable discussion but, for what it’s worth, here goes:

First, with all due respect to Stephen and Karma there are a lot more threatening pieces of software - and hardware - out there for ‘traditional’ musicians to be concerned about. Karma seems a fascinating multiple (if not endless) choice generator. But it’s the lad or lass at the controls who decides which grooves work with which and which to use so Karma, like any other generative piece of software, remains dependent on operators (even if you don’t want to call them ‘musicians’) making the decisions.

Dave Polich is entirely correct in his assertion that musicians are at the mercy of ‘financial considerations’ by ourselves or others. Always have been, always will be. I remember my 5-piece band’s pub residency being replaced by a DJ in the 1970s.

The technological bigger picture is that with every piece of societal or industrial ‘progress’ come casualties. Not so many farriers, or Panama hat weavers as there once were. Not so many piano tuners even. Hurdy Gurdy repairers…

The interesting point about music though is that its intrinsic value lies in the hands and ears of the person making it. Whatever technology or device is still able to create ‘the music rush’ is, I’d say, still valid. If the music created fails to resonate with listeners, then that’s a whole other problem. And one that will most likely be self-regulating. Bad music is not the sole domain of machines. I’ve heard - and played - plenty of utter garbage in my time.

Interesting comment from Sam Smith, who bagged all the big Grammy’s this past week:

“Before I made this record I was doing everything to try and get my music heard,” he said. “I tried to lose weight and I was making awful music. It was only until I started to be myself that the music started to flow and people started to listen.”

Wise words from this 22 year old and ones that should remind us all that music is always best when it floats our boats first, no matter how its generated. The props, aids or contraptions we use are something else entirely.

@Mr Motif, yours is a welcomed post.  I for one am glad you did weigh in. Its important that thoughtful opinions on the subject from all sides are made public.  If we cannot legitimately discuss such issues as practicing musicians, hobbyists, sound technicians etc, then who can, and to wear out a cliche, if not now then when?  Contraptions LOL, that’s about right.  If we’re being honest its all technology once you leave the human voice, hand claps and foot stomps. You’re right each generation moves the goal post a little further and some how we still have music.  So its means of production is I guess a evolving thing.  If it is good, and if we are inspired by it , entertained by it, motivated by, sustained by it then we are fortunate to have it how ever its made.  Agreed!  And Dave Polich’s point is not lost in all of this.  There is definitely a music economics and that has and is currently a fact of life.

Motif Karma which is I guess just the catalyst for a bigger discussion does represent imo a genre of music production beyond digital drum machines, permutations of pre-built music phrases, and digital song templates.  As a digital craved musician (which I am) its exciting technology. As a computer scientist and artificial intelligence researcher (which I also am) this new incarnation represents a threshold that computers are beginning to cross.  We may not be quite there yet, but we are quickly approaching.  The place where a computer “without a operator” will be able to compose music that is enjoyable, inspirational, motivational, creative, and to Dave Polich’s point profitable!

As the audience’s standard for what constitutes acceptable music morphs and evolves; totally computer generated composition (without operators) will become more acceptable (In walks the music production software Xhail)
As musicians we don’t believe (or at least we hope) that the computer will never replace the human but I must admit I have a dichotomy here, because IRL I do a kind of research and software development that is aimed at and does replace humans all the time.  And with Motif Karma I realize that indirectly my other occupation is affecting my cherished music.

Will we all be just as satisfied, when commercial music production has been totally automated(for the most part) with very few humans involved in the process?  Sure human’s have provided the initial music libraries so to speak, but now that foundation has been laid, and the technology can handle it from here.

The teenagers and young ones that are not yet teenagers, may (in the very near future) enjoy, purchase and conceptualize something that they will call music that has virtually no human being in the pipeline at all. With the term musician being redefined to be something that Duke Ellington, Liberace, Bob Dylan,Lang Lang, Mozart,Bjork,Herbie Hancock,etc LOL wouldn’t recognize. I don’t mean to pick on Motif-Karma but since I’m a Yamaha Fanboy Motif-Karma is my initial point of contact…