I’m getting very confused trying to Mix Songs for live use. I use the same equipment I play live with, trying to get everything within a certain constant in terms of volume and EQ, but still find that the EQ (and effects) will sound good one day, then completely wrong or muddy the next. I can never seem to get the definition and crispness I want. And I’m not talking about when I go to another location. I haven’t moved the equipment, yet some things are unrecognizable.  Is this just “ear fatigue” or is there a process or philosophy when it comes to the task of mixing? 

I’m also vague on the concept of System FX and Master FX vs tweaking individual voices.

I realize I’m asking Mixing:101 questions and could use some further education, in which case I welcome guidance to articles or threads on the nuts and bolts of mixing.

muscarella - 20 December 2014 07:21 AM

I’m getting very confused trying to Mix Songs for live use. I use the same equipment I play live with, trying to get everything within a certain constant in terms of volume and EQ, but still find that the EQ (and effects) will sound good one day, then completely wrong or muddy the next. I can never seem to get the definition and crispness I want. And I’m not talking about when I go to another location. I haven’t moved the equipment, yet some things are unrecognizable.  Is this just “ear fatigue” or is there a process or philosophy when it comes to the task of mixing?

If things sound good one day and bad the next, “ear fatigue” is indeed a possibility - hearing is certainly subject to sensory adaptation. I could make suggestions, but a Google search on “mixing ear fatigue” (without the quotation marks) gets some good hits on the topic.

 

muscarella -

I’m also vague on the concept of System FX and Master FX vs tweaking individual voices.

An advantage - or problem - with effects on workstations such as the Motif line is that they can be applied at various points. When playing a single Voice, the Insertion Effects can help “make” the sound, but when that Voice is used as a Part of a Performance or Mix, those same effects can muddy/smear the sound. That’s especially true when reverb/delay of differing timing is added to the individual Voice/Part as well as to the overall sound. In the real world, instruments being played simultaneously are affected almost uniformly by the acoustics of the space they’re in. To emulate that in a Mix, and thereby have the sound more cohesive, it’s often helpful for the System Effects to provide the majority of any reverberation, and reduce or even eliminate it for the individual Parts. When mixing for live use, it can be better for even the System and Master Effects to be reduced, since the acoustics of the venue can sometimes interact detrimentally with them.

 

muscarella -

I realize I’m asking Mixing:101 questions and could use some further education, in which case I welcome guidance to articles or threads on the nuts and bolts of mixing.

Google “sound mixing tutorial” (again, no quotes) for articles on the basics.

See http://www.artandscienceofsound.com/

Thank you. That kind of confirms my suspicions and concerns, about effects and such on each voice. But still leaves me a little daunted.

As I write this I am sitting at my MOX in my living room with my Mackie 12 channel mixer, facing my Mackie 350 powered speakers (15 feet apart, 15 feet away), trying to create as best I can my actual live sound/equipment configuration. Going through each Song/Performance with the goal of getting things uniform AND sounding sharp. And (as you suggest) considering that this is only one room, so whatever I do has to be able to be modified at the actual venue.

When I dial off the Chorus, say, on a Voice that I suspect is “over produced”, this qualifies as a Mixing Voice change, and does not require that I save it as a User Voice, correct? (I’m already finding that I’m having to bring up the Output Volume on many of the individual Voices, but that’s another issue.)

At what “stage” do I do the tweaking of a Voice’s EQ? At the Voice (Mixing Voice) level? This is possibly one of the “ear fatigue” symptoms, but I’d swear some of my EQ tweaks vanish from session to session. Volume, too. 

I’ve considered (and you seem to be suggesting?) mixing every Song/Pattern/Performance almost “dry” (except for the Insertion Effect I suppose) and then just letting my hardware mixer provide the Reverb, depending on the venue.  But that seems like a shame, to be limited to what’s on my basic mixer vs my supercharged MOX effects bank.  SOOOOO.... is that where System Effects enters into it? If so, how do enter System Effects mode for each Song/Performance? I assume it’s part of a Common menu. And does that really solve anything because it’s not like I have time to go through every individual Song in the show and redo the Reverb/Chorus(etc). Which puts me back to the idea of keeping everything dry, laying on some basic Reverb at the venue, and cie la vee. 

As it is, using the actual sound system (powered Mackies, Mackie mixer) I perform live with, when I just kind of preview a favorite ready-made Performance groove, I find myself having to take the MOX channel and boost the Hi/Low knobs (only have the two) off “flat”, just to make my personal ears happy. Am I already messing up the brew by doing that? Should I mix EQ with everything absolutely “flat” on the mixer hardware dials and sliders, no matter what? 

So many questions. (And they might not even be the right questions!) I will read the MOX sound mixing tutorial (again) and also comb the internet. I’m just a little wary of being able to translate general concepts into Yamaha/MOX-speak. For sure, I’m admittedly confused about the “philosophy” of System Effects, AND what stage of the process, ideally, to tweak it. My goal is to keep the whole show relatively uniform (like an actual band playing live) from Song/Performance to Song/Performance, without too many gimmicks and certainly nothing that sounds canned. This would seem to indicate the need to keep the “environment” effects consistent (ala System FX on the MOX or via my hardware mixer) and using the internal MOX FX sparingly, but maybe I’m thinking too hard. 

Thanks for feedback and patience. I am so happy with the MOX and what I’ve been able to accomplish (with much help from this Forum!). Having an intelligent game plan for mixing (specifically for “live” performance) is the last great hurtle.

I don’t have the time right now to reply in depth to your questions, and they do deserve more than cursory responses.

A few quick things, though…
This is worth reading if you haven’t already seen it:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/insertion_effects_differ_from_the_system_effects

Look at the Effect Type List on page 78 of the MOX Data List. Most of the effects can be used at the Insertion level. However, I’d suggest that if you apply any of the reverbs for that purpose, be sparing - when added to System Effects of the same type, that can tend to cause a loss of clarity.

Using EQ to make a frequency “space” for instruments so that they don’t compete as much with each other also helps with clarity. Although written mostly from a standpoint of recording, this article makes some good points:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov08/articles/qa1108_3.htm

I’ll try to get back to you soon to address things more specifically.

muscarella - 20 December 2014 11:07 PM

[...]As I write this I am sitting at my MOX in my living room with my Mackie 12 channel mixer, facing my Mackie 350 powered speakers (15 feet apart, 15 feet away), trying to create as best I can my actual live sound/equipment configuration. Going through each Song/Performance with the goal of getting things uniform AND sounding sharp. And (as you suggest) considering that this is only one room, so whatever I do has to be able to be modified at the actual venue.

While your living room seems to be bigger than some, that size would probably still be considered a small venue.  ;-)

Of course, I don’t know the specifics of that room, but a problem with some is that they’re sized so that the dimensions have common factors. A particularly “bad” room might be 16 feet long, 16 feet wide, with a height of 8 feet. There would be significant peaks and dips in reproduced sound at various frequencies, depending on location of the speakers and the listener. Using such a room as a standard while adjusting EQ and/or effects would not be a good idea. Hopefully your living room has a more irregular shape and dimensions.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_modes

For “fun”, try 16x16x8 foot dimensions here:
http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

 

muscarella -

When I dial off the Chorus, say, on a Voice that I suspect is “over produced”, this qualifies as a Mixing Voice change, and does not require that I save it as a User Voice, correct? (I’m already finding that I’m having to bring up the Output Volume on many of the individual Voices, but that’s another issue.)

I suspect you’re not quite understanding what a “Mixing Voice” is. You can certainly edit a Voice and store it as a Mixing Voice…
This is slanted towards the XS, but principles apply to the MOX:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/mix_voice_bank_mixv
...but you can also edit the Mix in a way that affects a Part without it being a Mixing Voice. For example, reducing the Chorus Send level of a Part doesn’t create a Mixing Voice.

muscarella -

At what “stage” do I do the tweaking of a Voice’s EQ? At the Voice (Mixing Voice) level? This is possibly one of the “ear fatigue” symptoms, but I’d swear some of my EQ tweaks vanish from session to session. Volume, too.

EQing of a Voice can either be applied to a User Voice or to a Mixing Voice. That level of adjustment is usually done to improve how an instrument “sits” in the Mix. This might be interesting:
http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2646633/

If you properly STORE Mix-related parameters, they shouldn’t “vanish”.

If you need to adjust for a venue’s characteristics, that where Master EQ can come in handy.

muscarella -

I’ve considered (and you seem to be suggesting?) mixing every Song/Pattern/Performance almost “dry” (except for the Insertion Effect I suppose) and then just letting my hardware mixer provide the Reverb, depending on the venue.  But that seems like a shame, to be limited to what’s on my basic mixer vs my supercharged MOX effects bank.  SOOOOO.... is that where System Effects enters into it? If so, how do enter System Effects mode for each Song/Performance? I assume it’s part of a Common menu. And does that really solve anything because it’s not like I have time to go through every individual Song in the show and redo the Reverb/Chorus(etc). Which puts me back to the idea of keeping everything dry, laying on some basic Reverb at the venue, and cie la vee.

Obviously, I can only generalize about this. I’m inclined to suggest using System Effects conservatively, especially if you haven’t previously played at a particular venue. You could also save a couple of “All” files, with different amounts of System Effects applied to Mixes - if there’s an opportunity to try them at the venue during setup, decide then whether the dryer or wetter one works better there.

muscarella -

As it is, using the actual sound system (powered Mackies, Mackie mixer) I perform live with, when I just kind of preview a favorite ready-made Performance groove, I find myself having to take the MOX channel and boost the Hi/Low knobs (only have the two) off “flat”, just to make my personal ears happy. Am I already messing up the brew by doing that? Should I mix EQ with everything absolutely “flat” on the mixer hardware dials and sliders, no matter what?

There are many variables, and personal preference plays a big part in such decisions. My own inclination would be to keep the mixer controls as centered as possible, which would provide a reference point as well as allow for adjustment in either direction. However, if you find that no matter which venue you play in, there’s a need to boost both high and low frequencies, then you could use the mixer controls to do that, or possibly use the MOX Master EQ.

muscarella -

So many questions. (And they might not even be the right questions!) I will read the MOX sound mixing tutorial (again) and also comb the internet. I’m just a little wary of being able to translate general concepts into Yamaha/MOX-speak. For sure, I’m admittedly confused about the “philosophy” of System Effects, AND what stage of the process, ideally, to tweak it. My goal is to keep the whole show relatively uniform (like an actual band playing live) from Song/Performance to Song/Performance, without too many gimmicks and certainly nothing that sounds canned. This would seem to indicate the need to keep the “environment” effects consistent (ala System FX on the MOX or via my hardware mixer) and using the internal MOX FX sparingly, but maybe I’m thinking too hard.

There’s no question that you can over-think this. I’d suggest getting things “in the ballpark”, and seeing how it goes. Don’t be overly concerned - even the “big acts” sometimes struggle with their sound. Remember, people mostly want to hear the music, and many aren’t nearly as concerned about the sound as you’re probably being.

muscarella -

Thanks for feedback and patience. I am so happy with the MOX and what I’ve been able to accomplish (with much help from this Forum!). Having an intelligent game plan for mixing (specifically for “live” performance) is the last great hurtle.

You’re welcome. Best of luck with your gigs.

I found an article I think make some good points about clarity. It concerns physical aspects of large venues, but applies to electronic effects:
http://www.classical-scene.com/2010/03/07/explanation-of-clarity-versus-reverberation-in-concert-acoustics/