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popsel2
Total Posts: 76
Joined 11-23-2013 status: Experienced |
Used Equipment:
Hello again!
While exploring the scope creating own drumsets I would need some help again.
When I create my own UDR Drumset, like Yamaha did, I get not sound on the keys assinged to the waveform containing my samples.
This is my single waveform, containing all samples:
Here the UDR voice is assigned to this waveform.
In the attachment is my UDR voice without sound if somebody wants to try it or needs it for investigation. Regards Andreas File Attachments
LM23.zip (File Size: 764KB - Downloads: 256) |
Bad_Mister
Total Posts: 36620
Joined 07-30-2002 status: Moderator |
No it is not a “Yamaha secret” - why would you think that? (Strange)? Here is what you missed:
There are two basic type of VOICES: NORMAL VOICES and DRUM VOICES;
Normal Voices can access 8 Waveforms.
A Waveform is a collection of audio samples that make up a Voice or a component of a Voice.
Mostly a Normal Voice has all 8 Waveforms used to create a single instrument sound - like the 8 Waveforms that make up the “Full Concert Grand” piano Voice.
Of course, the behavior of Drum Key envelopes are different from Normal instrument envelopes. Typically, you have to hold a key to make is play its entire amplitude envelope. Drum Keys are set so duration of key held is ignored. You must appreciate the difference here for this “Yamaha secret” to make sense: In order to create a DRUM KIT VOICE with the most flexibility, the things you want to know are the following: Each Drum or Percussion hit in a Drum Kit Voice is served best if you place it in memory as a ‘one’ KEYBANK WAVEFORM. Each Drum should be treated as a separate instrument - because in reality, it is! In other words, that first screen shot shows samples laid out as if they were assigned to a “NORMAL” VOICE, not a “DRUM” KIT VOICE. In a Normal VOICE you could use the data as you have so meticulously (and unnecessarily, by the way) laid it out. A Drum Kit would have a single sample per Waveform… And you would have 18 WAVEFORMS each with a single Sample in it!!!
A WAVEFORM can be thought of as a complete set of samples that make up an instrument or some component of that instrument.
Lets use the SNARE DRUM as an example:
With your method above, you’d have to use COARSE TUNING even to make the Drum sound normal - Also your method would be far less flexible if I only want to use one of your samples in a different DRUM KIT… I’d have to use all 18 of your drums together. Yikes! there is a better way… ...respect each Drum and Percussion sound as a separate instrument. A Bass Drum is a separate instrument (in a Marching Band you can get a job playing just Bass Drum). A Snare Drum is a separate instrument (in a Marching Band you can get a job playing just the Snare Drum). A Cymbal is a separate instrument (in a Marching Band you can get a job playing just the cymbals, and so on… A Drum kit is often called a “Trap Kit”, short for “Contraption” which is what early Twentieth Century jazz drummers used to call it - because it was an amalgam of things welded together and looked quite a site. By treating each Drum as a separate instrument (with its own separate WAVEFORM) with a Range of C-2 through G8… even when assigned to a single KEY as in a Drum Kit Voice, you can use the Coarse Tune parameter to tighten or loosen (tune up or down) that sample. If you leave it your way, when you attempt to COARSE TUNE the Drum it disappears because there is no documentation in memory of that sample at any other pitch than the one KEY you assigned it in your KEY RANGE. So Coarse Tuning it a half step in either direction causes the sample not to sound at all. By placing all your drum samples in the same WAVEFORM as you have, when you place your one WAVEFORM in a Drum Kit Voice you can only play one note from the one KEY you assign it to… this is a tremendous waste of memory. You also cannot COARSE TUNE your Drum sample because they only have a NOTE RANGE of one Note.
Again this is why you want to make each DRUM sample a separate WAVEFORM, and you want to set the original ROOT KEY for each Drum to C3 (it’s in the middle and will allow tuning UP and/or DOWN).
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popsel2
Total Posts: 76
Joined 11-23-2013 status: Experienced |
Hi Bad_Mister, thank you for your help and telling your point of view. Yes, if I want the most flexibilty for a drum kit voice it is the best to assign each drum sound to a separate waveform.
I was already explaining my way of doing this a few days ago.
Link: Drumset Editing Tutorial
But this time I took a Yamaha programmed drum voice as reference.
My question was:
In the meantime John Melas found the reason after I asked him for help:
In other words:
So, finally I know “Yamaha’s secret” ;-)
Regards
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Bad_Mister
Total Posts: 36620
Joined 07-30-2002 status: Moderator |
There is no problem with Coarse Tuning.
it is your idea because you have combined several methods of working into one program. And that is quite okay… The MOXF is very programmable and invites creativity. There is no one way to work. Many of the Preset Drum Kit Voices are created as I’ve been explaining to you - where each Key contains a single instrument Waveform. Some are purposefully “stretching” a sample across a key region using a programming “trick” - using the same waveform assigned to several adjacent keys and then Coarse tuning it across the Kit. But even they are composed of single instrument Waveform You cannot tune your individual “drum instruments” is all I’m saying ... When you assign you waveform to a key of an existing Kit (try it) you will see what I’m talking about. There are also normal Voice “drum kits” where a programmer uses the 8 Element architecture of a Normal Voice to create what are referred to as “8 ZONE” voices… You will see these all have “8Z” as a prefix to their name. But even here each drum instrument sound is stored in its own Waveform. This simply allows you greater flexibility and access to more pitches when using the waveform in a Voice. In other words there are no drum kits in the MOXF that have multiple samples the way you have mapped them… I’m not saying you can’t do it that way… Just questioning why? And to say you got the idea from Yamaha data would be incorrect. All other preset and user Drum Voices are of the 73 Element, one instrument per Waveform variety. We are not sure what Yamaha programmed drum voice you used as a reference but it is not one from the 72 Preset Drum or 32 User Drum Banks, that’s for sure. If it is, then you have misinterpreted how the Waveforms in that kit are configured… |
popsel2
Total Posts: 76
Joined 11-23-2013 status: Experienced |
Hi Bad_Mister!
How can you claim that if you don’t know which problem I mean ?
Ok, here is a copy of what I wrote to John Melas for your information:
How can you claim that if you don’t know which voice I used as reference ?
At the German official Yamaha site you can download this soundset:
Because of that I say this is a Yahama sound.
I never claimed my refererence is from MOXF. But I wrote some days ago I am working with the Wave Editor and actually there is no function for opening MOXF files (X6A or X6V). So I have to use files the Wave Editor is able to open to find out how voices were build.
You asked why I am doing this.
Here’s my summary what I learned about it so far:
Assingning each drum sample to a separate waveform:
- 100 drum samples require 100 waveforms
Combining all drum samples in ONE waveform:
- less flexible (only fine tunable drum sounds)
OK, you may find some other differences but this should be enough to figure out what I mean.
Now I can choose which method is the best for my project.
Regards
File Attachments
LM23.zip (File Size: 764KB - Downloads: 262) |