Just got a Yamaha N12, and still trying to figure things out.
Using MAC 10.6 updated.
I recorded 4 performance trks into Logic from Motif XS8 M1,M2,M3,M4.
then tried to record a direct input guitar part on a new track using N12 9/10 input from a GR55.

During playback the guitar part is not in sync with 4 Motif parts which are really just 4 audio trks now in Logic.
All parts are playing back via the Motif stereo LR mix output.
I tried with Motif as the internal clock and also tried with N12 as the clock. It didn’t seem to matter.
Have not tried this in Cubase.

Anyone using the combo of Motif and N12 that might have some input in the best way to setup the tracks?

Dan

Make sure you’re listening to your recorded Logic tracks when
doing the guitar overdub in Logic. I can’t see how you monitor the guitar through Motifs LR output without the FW16E installed, unless you did the recording in the XS.
You should post exactly what you did and how everything is hooked up.

Ab

Agreed, it is impossible to know how you got painted in this corner without details of how you have things setup.

For example, although there are many ways to setup your gear, most would opt to use the n12 as the functioning mixer here (since it is, well, a mixer)… What this means is that you would connect your monitor speakers to the n12.

Although just because “most” would do this, there is nothing that says you cannot use the Motif XS as the device that routes to your speakers. But it is necessary to explain your setup in detail for anyone else to give you reason why you are getting results that are not in sync. There is a solution - but first the cause of the issue needs to be found.

Please provide more details on your actual setup and reasons you think this is how you want to work. or simply describe how you want things to work.

I see what you mean about the details.

In this particular case, N12 does have speakers directly connected to N12, control A output so I can turn down speakers when only using headphones.

what I meant in Logic was that it gives all the ins and outs of both Motif and N12 as options as to how to route things.
I use the motif LR mix IN with N12 stereo as output
My GR55 uses track 25-26 which is stereo 9/10 on N12 as IN and N12 Stereo as Output

I did a simply test of the click track and played a quarter note on each beat and this is what I found.

When I record in Cubase the GR55 input is precisely on the beat.

When I record with the same setup in Logic the GR55 gets recorded almost one beat earlier than the beat.

Dan

Since you don’t mention the use of a FW16E, you are only dealing with one audio interface, the N12.
Make sure that this device is chosen in Audio Midi Setup (AMS) which you can find in Applications/Utilities on your system drive. Set the format to the sample rate you wanna work with and the clock source to internal.
Open a new empty Logic project and save it as “Test” to your HD. In “preferences/audio” make sure that the N12 is active as input/output device, and de-activate software monitoring. In “settings/audio” make sure the project’s sample rate is the same as the one defined in AMS.

Now follow this simple example.

Connect your Motif (output L/R) to input 11/12 of the N12 (input select to A.in) and route it to the stereo bus.
By setting the appropriate gain, fader levels on ch 11/12 and the stereo bus, you should hear the Motif’s signal on your speakers or headphones connected to the N12.

Now create a new audio track in Logic. (Track/new/audio). Select 11/12 as input (where you physically connected the motif to the N12). Set the output to N12L/R.
Record arm the track and record your sequence or performance from the Motif.

After recording, turn up the level control of the “DAW to ST” in the master control section and
you should hear what you’ve just recorded.

Now plug in your GR55 to 9/10 of the N12 (like you already did).
Create a new audio track in Logic and choose input 9/10 and output N12L/R.
Now record your guitar overdub. On playback, you should hear it exactly like you played it.
To mix the two tracks, you can use the faders,pan and the insert slots of the Logic tracks.
Of course, you can output the tracks to different input channels of the N12 by choosing
the appropriate output in Logic’s track inspector and selecting “DAW input” on the corresponding destination channel of the N12 to use the onboard reverb, EQ and compression of the N12.

Hth

Ab

Thanks for the detailed instructions.
Firewire Configuration:
N12 to Computer
N12 to Motif XS
N12 primary internal clock
Software Monitoring turned off
Motif L/R mix outputs to N12 11/12
GR 55 L/R outputs to N12 9/10
MAC 10.6.7

So in a very basic experiment for example, I created a midi track with 8 quarter notes. Then recorded just like you recommended but still even the motif going thru the N12 to Logic shows the audio leading the beat.

I played the GR55 with a click and just played quarter notes and it is the same thing.

I even tried a test of motif LR mix output LR MIX IN and recorded the midi quarter notes and same thing the audio sample shows the wav leading the beat each time. So in that case the N12 is not even in the equation.

Doing the same experiments in Cubase the audio samples are precisely in sync with each beat of the measure.

Dan

You should forget about midi for now.
The example I gave was about hooking up the XS and the GR55 to the N12 so you can listen
to them and record them as AUDIO in Logic.
On the XS In performance mode choose a performance let’s say “funky finger” (On the XF it’s USR2 B12)
When hitting for instance “G1” on your keyboard, you’ll hear a 4 measure pattern of bass and drums and with ARPEGGIO turned “on” they’ll play all night for you until you pull the plug.
Record this in Logic “ON THE FLY”. Never mind click tracks or whatsoever. Disable Logic’s metronome by pressing “C” on your QWERTY keyboard.
After recording the performance, find a nice rhythm part for your guitar and record that to a new audio track in Logic while listening to the just recorded performance of the XS.
When done recording, playback the 2 tracks. Now, how does that sound?

Btw. in your FW config. you talk about “N12 to Motif XS”. What do you mean by that????

Ab

I already did the listening types of tests that’s what clued me into the out o sync condition.
The reason I chose midi is it is a precise form of execution. We all hope to be good at performing in time but I was taking my skills, my ears out of the equation.
Cubase does not have this problem so that tells me the hardware is not an issue as it is same everything.
So its software that is at question.
Now I had not noticed any issue prior to getting the N12 so I think it became more noticeable.

As far as the FW, the ability to daisy chain the motif and the N12 using a common driver is precisely why I bought the N12. Only having two INS on the Motif I was always at a disadvantage, Now I have a boatload of inputs and outputs which include both the N12 and the Motif.

So there are 2 FW connections on the N12 and 2 on the Motif XS8 so you can wire them any way you want but its a common bus using a common driver. So there is a FW cable going from N12 to Computer and another from N12 to Motif, that part works great, no problems. Just something of a problem recording with either.

the way I work, I like to use the XS performances to come up with ideas for songs, so its usually my starting point. Then still in midi I can build a whole song, clean up mistakes, etc.
Then I start adding audio like guitars & vocals.
I like Logic with all its great features but its looking like Cubase may be better to achieve my goals. I only have Cubase 4 AI so it does not have the vst’s that Logic has built in.
But now with the GR55 most of my guitar effects are accomplished with it. So that really only leaves vocals needing some nice effects.

I cannot think of a conceivable instance in which the software, be it Logic, Digital Performer or whatever DAW, is not the clock source. The N12 and XS both should be slaved to Logic. That is the first and most serious issue at hand. The XS certainly transmits no clock that Logic will receive and even if it could, Logic certainly has the most accurate clock (higher resolution) and the N12 and XS should be slaved to it.

The mLAN monitor settings are also critical here because they help determine whether the audio is transmitted into Logic and returned to the XS, where it picks up latency, as any DAW would, or remains in the XS itself. As this link shows. These settings are fluid: meaning they change frequently based on what kind of recording you are doing. If you are using the XS sequencer, you choose the w/PC setting. If playing live on the XS or guitar, etc… that setting is changed to w/PC DirectMonitor…

In addition, the I/O Buffer Size within Logic or any DAW is also a critical setting because it also determines the amount of latency. And, like the settings above, it is fluid because this setting, optimally, should change based upon whether you are doing live recording or just auditioning previously recorded audio tracks within the DAW. Auditioning or recording software instrument tracks however, will again require a higher setting…

There are any number of other things that can affect latency and timing, but these are certainly a good starting point…

Finally, without attempting to argue the point: MIDI is really is not as precise form of execution as you may think. I use it extensively, I love it. But it has inherent issues as relating to clock, drift, etc…

At least we know now that you have a FW card installed in your XS. Jeeeez.
To have all the ins and outs of the Motif and the N12 available in Logic at the same time, you have to create an aggregate device in AMS. Did you do that? In Logic’s “Preferences/Audio” what I/O device is active?

Motif8mine:
Your first statement is very confusing. How can a DAW itself provide the clock source. From what I know,
in Logic’s Core Audio pane - I/O you choose the I/O device, being it built-in, N12 or Motif (in this case)
or aggregate device (in case it is setup in AMS) which will provide the master clock for your project.
The project’s sample rate definition is done in Logic’s settings, to which your audio interface will slave.
You are not referring to midi clock, are you? Please elaborate.

Ab

Interesting replies.
Wango don’t really think you understand about the Yamaha FW driver.
The beauty of the having a single driver for two different devices like the N12 and the Motif is that it automatically aggregates the 2 devices.

I tried a few more things and I think I am doing much better now.
I found an update to FW driver V1.7.0 dated Feb 2011, so I updated that. (I had V1.6)

But the real fix was in the Recording delay slider, i had messed with that a little bit before but now kept trying different settings and got the audio samples to line up precisely with the beat.
It’s set at -28 samples now, I don’t know what the default setting is suppose to be but that works.

So back to my original test.
So now I have recorded a Performance “Live” choosing edit I set the outputs of each part to “M1&2;",M3&4;" “M5&6;” and “M7&8;” on the motif.
I set the 4 separate stereo trks in Logic to those same Motif inputs which works out to Input 3&4;,5&6;, 7&8;, 9&10;in Logic. Using the N12 Stereo bus as the output in each case.

Recorded a short piece. Checked it all parts are separated(drums,bass,keys,etc)
Then with GR55 I set a track to record on N12 9/10 In with N12 Stereo Output.
I recorded my guitar playing along with the previously recorded 4 trks.
Now everything seems to be totally synced.
Finally I recorded GR55 using quarter notes to be distinct with a click track and then examined them in the Sample editor and they were right on the money with each beat.

BTW does not matter whether I use N12 or Motif XS as the internal clock source it works the same.

Would like to know what you guys have for your Recording delay setting?

Dan

The beauty of the having a single driver for two different devices like the N12 and the Motif is that it automatically aggregates the 2 devices.

Sure, but that doesn’t change the principe, that for Logic to see more than one device at the same
time, you have to aggregate them. Only difference: Yamaha did it for you.
I never touched the delay slider because I never felt the need to. Set at 0 samples.
All in all I think that the driver update resolved your problem.

Best
Ab