Old Motifator threads are available in the Archive.
WesEXer
Total Posts: 336
Joined 10-29-2003 status: Enthusiast |
When I say “on the cheap”, I’m talking like $300. I’d bet even at that for simply the mainboard, there’s a profit for yamaha. There’s nothing santa claus about it other than it being a reasonable upgrade path for XS owners. And remember this is just a talking point on this scenario. It’s freakin awesome that XS owners will benefit form the XF lifecycle. I disagreee wholeheartedly about the cost of providing an upgrade path, because that cost would rest on us. If it’s just a mainboard swap, it’s a 30 minute procedure. I’ve seen what holds the mainboard in and know how hard it is to get to. It’s not. We’re talking about 10 screws maybe to open the case and maybe another 10 to free the motherboard.
To sell the XS (Which is about to PLUMMET in value) to buy an XF outright would end up costing at least double to triple the above figure. It simply doesn’t make sense, and IMO frankly isn’t worth it.
So you’re saying that the circuit board costs $900? Here’s how I figure from $1300. $100 to ship each way, and say $100 labor to swap the board. We’ll even throw in another $100 for misc costs. There’s no way the XF would be in production if the one board cost was 1/3 of it’s MAP price. I appreciate your reply, but that explanation doesn’t add up for me. |
meatballfulton
Total Posts: 3022
Joined 01-25-2005 status: Guru |
I don’t think XS prices will plummet now that the XF is here. Dealers with lots of new XSes in stock might drop their prices but I don’t expect used prices to be impacted much at all. In fact demand might actually increase and push used prices up! I bought my ES6 for $1400 used in 2005 which was about 2/3 of a new one at the time. Today if I wanted a used XS6 the cheapest I’ve seen was about $1600, again 2/3 of new! Today I still see the ES6 in local want ads and eBay for $1000. Sure, five years from now you might see a used $1000 XS6 but the price drop is not going to be rapid. |
miket156
Total Posts: 148
Joined 06-28-2004 status: Pro |
I can’t go along with the cost of an XF system board being only $300.00 There was a LOT of R&D;money that went into design, writing code, spec and mfg proprietary processors and then manufacturing the board itself. Its not the same as IBM clones that used off-the-shelf parts, Intel and other microprocessors, video cards made by companies that only made video cards, I/O boards, generic D-RAM that could be bought in quantity from companies that only make memory. That market is completely different (and much cheaper) than what MI manufacturers are producing. They are making a completely different product for a much smaller market with a limited number of buyers. So if Yamaha says the system board sells for $900 (retail price) it doesn’t sound out of line. They also have to inventory the items have a distribtion system which includes computers, software, and people to manage and support their parts/service. The installation (if you want it to have a warranty) would have to be installed at a Yamaha dealer or service center or that has a tech(s) that is trained and knows what he’s doing. Lets say that an upgrade can be done by a local Yamaha dealer. They might be able to charge 60 bucks for the installation, but they will have to make money on the system board too or it won’t be worth doing. In that sense its the same as bringing your car to a dealer or service center and having an exhaust system installed. They charge for the parts and the service. At one time I thought that MI system boards where very expensive, but after thinking about it for quite awhile and drawing from the experience I had working for computer companies, it’s tough to low ball proprietary products with a very limited market and stay in business. Anyway, Yamaha has already stated there will not be an upgrade path but they are considering having a loyalty program of some kind. New models will always be coming out as long as there is a demand for that category of instrument. We all have to face the fact that there is an obsolescence factor with anything you buy. Cheers, Mike T. |
stephenchoi
Total Posts: 37
Joined 07-09-2009 status: Regular |
Does anyone know the details of the prior Loyalty Program from Motif ES to XS? What was offered? Just trying to get a sense of what might by offered this time for the XS to XF loyalty program. Thanks. |
MartinHines
Total Posts: 588
Joined 03-05-2003 status: Guru |
The original Yamaha Loyalty program was really a “sell the old board yourself and Yamaha will give some freebies to both buyer and seller”. If I recall, the Buyer of the old Motif got a free warranty and I think both got some type of Motifator.com store credit. The key point is any loyalty program is not a “trade-in your old board to Yamaha” program. |
kevland1
Total Posts: 1107
Joined 11-06-2005 status: Guru |
A generous loyalty program would be greatly appreciated in these tough economic times. though I could be happy with just the new XF performances being made available for the XS - but since there will be new voices, Arps,and such that probably would not work. |
delirium
Total Posts: 2441
Joined 11-16-2006 status: Guru |
so what percentage of motifator users suggestions were incorporated in new Motif XF? 10% or less? |
Dreamflight
Total Posts: 2688
Joined 03-07-2008 status: Guru |
Less, but I guess different people will have different lists. Df. |
WesEXer
Total Posts: 336
Joined 10-29-2003 status: Enthusiast |
I disagree with the first half, and agree for the 2nd half. While there was certainly R&D;involved, I don’t think it was THAT much. This probably isn’t a ground up design. Reusable code is big these days and I’d bet these are based on the previous code base of the XS and the S90 stuff. These are existing designs enhanced. Now the ASICs? Yeah that might cost some money. I don’t think Yamaha uses off the shelf parts there, but it’s impossible to know. However once the main R&D;is done, these parts are costed out for mfgr. R&D;is always recouped. The actual cost to produce the actual silicon and PCB when done in quantity is usually fairly low. I don’t now yamaha’s internal price structure, but I’ve heard that often the cost to produce something in the MI industry is not much more than 10-20% of it’s MAP. I have nothing whatsoever to back that up though. If there’s any truth to that, now way is the main board $900. NO argument there. But here is where I think you’re nuts. You don’t think all this is in place ALREADY? I don’t think an upgrade program would be much impact, especially for a company as large as Yamaha. We’re not dealing with a boutique company here.
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DavePolich
Total Posts: 6820
Joined 07-27-2002 status: Guru |
Wes, wth all due respect, I disagree with your statement that Yamaha could
Every time a new product comes out, there will always be people who cry
Companies who have offered upgrades to existing products (such as the
If you love your XS and don’t feel the XF is a significant change from it,
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miket156
Total Posts: 148
Joined 06-28-2004 status: Pro |
I vaguely remember reading about a KB player that needed to buy a new system board for his Nord Electro; it was about $900 too. I thought the price was way out of line because the Electro wasn’t all that expensive to begin with. However, the entire synth is on that system board, so the KB player had the choose to buy the replacement system board or buy a NEW keyboard instrument. So its not uncommon to find that kind of price on a system board for musical instruments. Should it be that high? No, but it is. There are reasons service parts are priced the way they are and only Yamaha can tell us why their system board is priced at $900.00. I also remember when Korg introduced the M3, it was available in 62, 73, or 88 note keyboards. Being that the M3 sound module was a separate component, we all thought that we could buy a 73 note KB to gig with, and have an 88 note KB at home to practice on and play. But Korg decided it was not going to make separate keyboards a service part. So that blew away the whole component system design that Korg was touting. It looks like the manufacturers know something that we don’t. Cheers, Mike T. |
Yamaha_US
Total Posts: 2540
Joined 07-19-2002 status: Moderator |
We checked in our system and the main board for the Motif XS is $1100 because it is basically the entire machine. We expect the XF will be about the same. Also you would need to buy a new LCD screen as these are technically slightly different. Oh , yes and a can of black paint We understand the thought, but unfortunately it is not realistically possible. |
meatballfulton
Total Posts: 3022
Joined 01-25-2005 status: Guru |
If you tried to build anything...a keyboard, a computer, a car, a washing machine...by ordering spare parts from the mfr it will cost you far more than just buying the whole thing in the first place! The cost of the circuit board assembly is not just the cost of the materials, but the cost of building it and keeping it in inventory as a separate order item. Then you’d have to pay for a Yamaha service center to install it. I wouldn’t hold my breath… |
miket156
Total Posts: 148
Joined 06-28-2004 status: Pro |
One other option to consider is if you are happy with your XS8 and don’t want to lose money on selling it and then replacing it with the XF8, why not keep the XS8 and buy a XF6 for all the new features, flash capability, and customization of the XF series? Buy a second tier for your KB stand and you’re set. Just a thought, Mike T. |
WesEXer
Total Posts: 336
Joined 10-29-2003 status: Enthusiast |
Dave, I understand the point of it “Not being worth it” for Yamaha. I wasn’t insinuating it would be wildly profitable, just an above and beyond move for existing customers that may have been feasible with good faith and great PR/ customer relations as the reward. I appreciate what you said, and can see where you’re coming from. I’m not crying foul whatsoever, I’m very happy with my XS and it’s been on the market a few years so change is inevitable. It was simply an idea based on how similar the boards were and knowing basically the ENTIRE keyboard is on ONE circuit board from having taken it apart. This is totally different than the Classic to ES IMO. The XS and XF share most of the same parts sans the mainboard and LCD screen. There were far more differences in previous motifs so it’s a completely different argument IMO. This is the only reason I got defensive with posts about how different they were and how impossible a task it was. Generally speaking, it’s as few as two parts.
Hey thanks for at least looking into it. TRULY appreciate it! With exception to the price, this is exactly what I thought. The mainboard is the WHOLE thing basically which could probably swap out easy. I figured the LCD was different, but wasn’t sure if the old one would work but perhaps not look as nice. I imagine the XF OS is using a different driver for the LCD and that’s why it’s not backward compatible. The actual code that writes to the screen (Before the driver) is probably the same. Changing the driver to support the XS screen would probably be trivial. Well, at least as a one time thing it would be, but maintaining that as the OS is updated is too much to ask. Oh Well! That’s why we throw the idea out there right? $1100 for the Mainboard? Is that the end user price if I were to call Yamaha for parts(Makes sense), or is that your manufacture cost(Does NOT make sense)? Thanks everyone for entertaining the idea… |