Hi All

When I have my MOXF connected to my laptop and want to send MIDI data from the MOXF output port to a sound module using the MOXF Port 3 from the laptop, I find that it is absolutely fine with MIDI note data, control messages, program changes, etc, but Sysex doesn’t appear to be output. Is that correct, or should it be working?

I plugged the sound module into a different MIDI interface and sent the Sysex from that, and it worked absolutely fine, with the sound module showing “Bulk received”, and the changes intended by the Sysex properly made. However, when using the MOXF “Port 3” the exact same Sysex doesn’t work: the sound module doesn’t display the “Bulk received” message, and no changes have been made.

I know that the MIDI Port 3 works fine for note on/off data as I said about, and I know that the Sysex I am sending is correct by using the other MIDI interface. I’ve also ruled out MIDI cable issues by swapping multiple cables round.

Does anyone have any ideas?

David.

Davelet - 23 April 2018 03:42 AM

Hi All

When I have my MOXF connected to my laptop and want to send MIDI data from the MOXF output port to a sound module using the MOXF Port 3 from the laptop, I find that it is absolutely fine with MIDI note data, control messages, program changes, etc, but Sysex doesn’t appear to be output. Is that correct, or should it be working? [...]

On my XF, when MIDI In/Out is set to “USB”, I can send SysEx to Port 3 from my PC and it arrives at the XF’s 5-pin MIDI OUT without problem. I’m unaware of that not being possible with the MOXF.

In what mode are you using the MOXF when the problem occurs?

Which version of the OS is installed on your MOXF?

Hi 5PinDIN

I’m using “USB” for the MIDI mode, like you with your XF.

The firmware is the latest at v1.12.

I tried again this evening: it seems that the start of the SYSEX is getting through - the starts of the bulk dump is making some changes to the receiving device, but then not the remainder. Which is odd, as I thought SYSEX had a checksum at the end (might be wrong about that though - am relying on memory).

Shy of getting an oscilloscope onto the end of the cable I’m uncertain how best to diagnose it. Perhaps feed the sysex from the MOXF Port 3 back into my other MIDI interface and see what is received with MIDIOX?

David.

Davelet - 23 April 2018 05:21 PM

[...] I tried again this evening: it seems that the start of the SYSEX is getting through - the starts of the bulk dump is making some changes to the receiving device, but then not the remainder. Which is odd, as I thought SYSEX had a checksum at the end (might be wrong about that though - am relying on memory).

Not all SysEx has a checksum. For example, most Motif family SysEx doesn’t, although bulk dumps do. However, a MOXF Normal Voice dump is not a single SysEx message, but a concatenation of 24 of them with a bulk header and footer. If the bulk data you’re sending is similar, it’s possible for some of the messages to get through, but not the remainder.

I wonder if the problem could be a matter of MIDI data interval/pacing.
 

Davelet -

Shy of getting an oscilloscope onto the end of the cable I’m uncertain how best to diagnose it. Perhaps feed the sysex from the MOXF Port 3 back into my other MIDI interface and see what is received with MIDIOX?

Indeed, if you can examine the SysEx available at the MOXF’s MIDI-Out port, that could be helpful.

I finally returned to this problem tonight and have - I think - narrowed the sysex problem down to the MOXF MIDI output port (as port 3 from the computer). I’ve eliminated all midi merge boxes, and other hardware from the equation.

I have used a separate MIDI interface along with the MOXF’s midi interface, while the MOXF is connected to my laptop via USB3.

I used MIDI ox to send and receive sysex files, manually checkinig that what I sent and received was correct (by glancing through a ~40k dump and checking the number of bytes received was the same as those sent, as well as glancing through to check that what was received looked like what was sent (didn’t check every byte, just a manual check through).

Here’s what I found:

Other MIDI interface sending -> MOXF receiving - OK
Other MIDI interface sending -> other MIDI interface receiving - OK
MOXF sending -> other interface MIDI receiving - not OK
MOXF sending -> MOXF receiving - not OK

By “not OK” - it’s glaringly obvious - only about ~1% of sent bytes are received, and the received bytes look nothing like those sent.

And I have swapped around multiple cables to eliminate them.

So it begs the question: is my MOXF faulty? The fact it is receiving *something* suggests that *some* sysex is being sent, but not all, which would suggest a fault. I tried slowing everything right down to minimum payloads with maximum buffer sizes between them to the point where a ~40k dump would take a minute or so, so I can’t believe that I am overloading any buffers.

Does anyone have any ideas? I surely can’t be the only one wishing to do sysex dumps via the MOXF output MIDI ports.

David.

It’s not clear to me exactly what you’re doing. Can you be more specific as to what gear is involved?

For example, what does “MOXF sending -> MOXF receiving” mean? Is that the MOXF doing a Bulk Dump of its own data, but failing when that data is sent back to it?

Try this…
See page 71 of the MOXF Reference Manual, [F4] BULK (Bulk Dump). Following the procedure will allow you to do a SysEx Bulk Dump of the Performance that’s in the Edit Buffer. Capture the data via a computer running a SysEx utility (MIDI-OX), and then send the data back to the MOXF. The received data goes into the Edit Buffer, so it doesn’t overwrite a User location. Let us know if that works.

Something else to be aware of…
MIDI was designed to work as a 5 mA current loop. The original design uses a 5 volt source and resistors of appropriate value (220 ohm) to result in approximately that current. Later designs, such as in the MOXF, use a 3.3 volt supply, and much lower value resistors so that the current is still about the same. The two designs are supposed to be compatible, but on occasion there are problems.

Hi 5pinDIN

Thanks for your help. Your message gave me some hints on things to try and I think I have worked it out - and shown up my lack of understanding of SysEX in the meantime.

What I *wanted* to do was, while the MOXF was connected via USB to my PC, to send SYSEX via my DAW to another sound module (actually a Yamaha FS1R) using the MIDI ports on the back of the MOXF - so via the MOXF Port3 in my DAW. I assumed that the “Port 3” would just behave like a regular standalone MIDI interface (which I also have, but wanted to use Port 3 on the MOXF so I didn’t have to connect up the standalone interface, too).

So after a *lot* of playing around with MidiOX and my standalone MIDI interface I have worked it out - the MOXF will *only* transmit MOXF sysex from its MIDI output port. That was it! I tried some Yamaha FS1R sysex files, some DX7 ones, some Roland ones, and none of them what be transmitted - only Yamaha MOXF sysex files would be transmitted from the MIDI output port.

So, sadly, not a lot of use really unless you’ve connected up another MOXF to the output MIDI port.

Hey, ho, it is what it is - so the standalone MIDI interface it is, then, and two USB cables to my laptop.

It would, of course, have been lovely if it had been documented somewhere. Maybe it is, in the pages and pages of MIDI info in the datalist.

David.

Something is amiss. Port 3 is a THRU port - it should act as an interface, and pass any MIDI data.

I don’t have a MOXF, but my Motif XF (and XS) will send SysEx from any manufacturer’s products via USB Port 3 to the MIDI-Out connector. I just verified that with some Korg files of various sizes, using MIDI-OX.

I’ve found that under certain conditions large MIDI-OX buffers don’t work correctly. I just checked, and I have both input and output buffers set to only 256 bytes, using 32 of each, with 0 ms delay.

How are you determining what data is being sent from the MOXF’s MIDI-Out? Are you using your other MIDI interface for monitoring? What model is it?

Hi 5pinDIN.

That’s interesting. Like you, I too thought it should just be a MIDI thru but it is clearly only passing thru MOXF sysex files. The MOXF does have different hardware to your Motif XF so maybe it has just been programmed differently intentionally; or, perhaps, it’s a bug. Or I have done something wrong but after playing around so much I think that’s unlikely.

I’m monitoring what it is outputting using a Roland Rubix22 (actually the older version) as the “other” MIDI interface. The Roland captures sysex dumped directly from the FS1R just fine, by the way. But any non-MOXF sysex that I try to output from the MOXF MiDI out ports it is not capturing anything.

It is really annoying as I would love not to have to have the Roland connected up all the time just for straight instrumental tracks using the FS1R. I rely on sysex to upload fseqs to it.

David.

Yamaha calls Port 3 a MIDI Thru Port - see page 54 of the MOXF Owner’s Manual. Before concluding that your MOXF is malfunctioning or that there’s a bug, would you try the following?…
Capture a Bulk Dump of a MOXF Performance as I suggested earlier. Then send it back to Port 3, and see if the SysEx is passed through to the MOXF’s MIDI-Out. Let us know.

Hi 5pinDIN - yes, any bulk dump from the MOXF gets passed out through port 3 correctly (same number of bytes and no error) - that was the first thing I tried after you suggested it (many thanks for the hint) in your post and led me to believe that MOXF sysex is passed through port 3 but other sysex isn’t, leading me to the experiments that I did that would suggest that that is the case.

It’d be great if there were some other MOXF users that could verify the behaviour that I see.

David.

Davelet - 11 July 2018 04:21 PM

It’d be great if there were some other MOXF users that could verify the behaviour that I see.

Hi Davelet,

I can’t verify that behavior as everything works as expected over here.

My setup:

MOXF firmware 1.03
MOXF MIDI in/out --> USB
MOXF Bulk interval --> 0ms
Roland U-220 MIDI out --> MOXF MIDI in
Roland U-220 MIDI in --> MOXF MIDI out

I can send and receive any sysex message to or from the U-220 without any problem, even bulk dumps.

As a last resort you might try to see if changing the Bulk interval setting on the MOXF gets you somewhere although it shouldn’t.

Davelet - 11 July 2018 04:21 PM

Hi 5pinDIN - yes, any bulk dump from the MOXF gets passed out through port 3 correctly (same number of bytes and no error) - that was the first thing I tried after you suggested it (many thanks for the hint) in your post and led me to believe that MOXF sysex is passed through port 3 but other sysex isn’t, leading me to the experiments that I did that would suggest that that is the case.[...]

Interesting. That would imply your MOXF is looking at the manufacturer and/or model ID byte(s), and filtering on that basis. Of course, a Thru port shouldn’t do that.

Manufacturer ID is the second byte in a SysEx message, the one right after the F0 header. For Yamaha it’s “43”. Here’s a list:
https://www.midi.org/specifications-old/item/manufacturer-id-numbers

If indeed the MOXF is making that determination, it would be interesting to edit a non-MOXF SysEx message’s ID byte, change it to 43, and see what happens. Or perhaps change MOXF messages IDs to that of a different manufacturer.

wonderer - 11 July 2018 07:51 PM

Hi Davelet,

I can’t verify that behavior as everything works as expected over here.

My setup:

MOXF firmware 1.03[...]

Since Davelet is using version 1.12, that of course raises the question of whether the difference matters.

If anyone else is running OS 1.12 and successfully using Port 3 for SysEx other than that of the MOXF, or has found that not possible, please let us know.

Just to make sure, I connected a Motif XF to the MoXF via MIDI and everything also works just fine with the sysex’s, no matter what “Bulk interval settings” I use on the MoXF (as expected).

Is there any way to downgrade the firmware?

Hi

I’ve done a bit more digging. The files that are successfully output via PORT3 on the MOXF start with:

F0 43 00 7F

Other Yamaha files that are not successfully output on PORT3 are, for example, DX7 files starting with:

F0 43 00 09

and FS1R files starting with:

F0 43 00 5E

So it’s not only filtering non-Yamaha messages, it’s filtering non-MOXF messages it seems. I might still be doing something wrong but I have tried so many things now in so many different configurations and with multiple interfaces and synths that the only conclusion I can come to is that the MOXF is filtering non-MOXF messages (which of course it shouldn’t do).

I have tried all sorts of buffer sizes and delays. I have ruled out the Roland interface, too, somehow filtering things by trying out my ancient EMU1212 on my desktop - the result is the same - no non-MOXF sysex is output.

I’m going to park the project now as I have spent hours and hours if not entire work-days trying to get to the bottom of this and I just want to spend my free time doing music. I spend enough time battling electronic engineering problems in the day job.

Thanks for all your support and help.

If I ever feel sufficiently inclined to look into it again I’ll try flashing an old version of the MOXF firmware, or get an oscilloscope onto the MIDI output port. But right now I’ve lost patience!

Thanks again for helping me to look into it.

David.