Will one DXR10 do the job or do I need the pair ?

Venatt - 10 February 2016 12:35 AM

Will one DXR10 do the job or do I need the pair ?

You can use the L/MONO output of the XF, but if you play stereo Voices there will be a degree of phase cancellation. That can cause loss of sound level at certain (often unpredictable) frequencies. Whether you’ll find that acceptable is a personal decision.

Also, many (most?) effects rely on stereo. If you play mono Voices, and don’t mind the loss of some effects, then a single speaker might be adequate. Otherwise, a pair of speakers might be preferable.

Venatt - 10 February 2016 12:35 AM

Will one DXR10 do the job or do I need the pair ?

Just to add to the good information 5pinDIN has provided:

You opened this thread in search of ways to increase the presence of your Motif within an ensemble configuration.

The Motifs were really designed to be stereo keyboards...notwithstanding a handful of specifically mono VOICES...especially in the effects department, as mentioned.

I have come to believe over several years, that many (not all!) of the problems people are having with the presence issue are caused in part by trying to get presence utilizing a mono setup.

I really recommend you do everything you can to provide a stereo stage configuration for your setup.  This is especially true if the sound you are producing with your gear is providing the total “room” sound...that is, without being additionally run through a FOH system which will often be mono and out of your control.

Some of your posts suggest your problems are with the presence you get when you are the single source of the sound being heard.  When your personal gear is the sole source of your keyboard sound, I believe you will constantly fight the presence issue running in mono.

As a bassist myself, I would not recommend letting a bassist run through your mixer into your PA speakers at a rehearsal unless it’s going to be very low volume. Vocals would be fine.

I’m going to chime in on this thread and also on the thread in the Onstage section.

I totally agree with the idea that for the Motif XF/MOXF to sound best it should be run in stereo to FOH and you should have two monitors so you can hear yourself in stereo.

That being said:

1. I’m lazy and I don’t want to carry two powered monitors and a mixer to most gigs. I just bring one QSC K10 and run my MOXF and Nord stage in mono to each channel. There is one post gain out on the K10 that I send to FOH or mixer.  I use the Ext. Sub crossover to cut some of the really low frequencies onstage (these still get sent out the post gain out) so I’m not stepping on the bass player when I play octaves, etc in my LH (on acoustic piano, EP, etc) or organ swoops etc. A lot of sound guys I know run a high pass filter on keys or cut a decent amount of bass/mid range out so it’s worth having a conversation with them if you’re already doing this with your EQ settings. I’ve seen some pretty famous acts with thin piano/keyboard sounds and this probably has something to do with this.

2. For club gigs, I generally don’t have room onstage for two monitors and a lot of times the sound is run in mono, so I’m usually forced to go mono anyway. Even for gigs with a pro sound company and backline, keys generally get one monitor and maybe one amp. I guess you could ask for two monitors, but is it realistic to expect a stereo send to monitors? More likely you’ll get two mono sends. **Obviously in a touring situation or with a band that always plays with the same sound guy, you don’t have to deal with this**

3. I remedy the phase cancellation and stereo effect issues by auditioning all my Voices (using one speaker) with the Melas editors. In the Voice editor it’s pretty easy to see which Elements are panned L or R and when a stereo delay is being used. Some of the more modern synth sounds are set this way and I just use my ear to decide if I need to center the elements or whether the L/mono summing works well enough. Some elements have an Alternating Pan effect which sounds great in stereo, but wacky in mono. The Monoaural Grand is my go to piano Voice, and I use the VCM Compression and EQ to brighten the sound which helps it cut through when the (overly) loud guitar and bass kick in. I have the Full Concert Grand (with the VCM eq gain raised a bit) available for quiet sections, intros, jazz tunes, but there is definitely some phase cancellation going on so I use it sparingly.

4. A couple of other small points: Most classic keyboards/synths are traditionally run in mono,so I’m assuming they are sampled that way, unlike almost all of the acoustic piano sounds. The effects will sometimes be in stereo, but the essential sound is still pretty crisp and dynamic running in mono. Obviously the stereo panned stuff sounds very cool, but things can also can sound pretty great with a flat stereo image. I’ve tried summing the Leslie insert effect on the Yamaha, I wasn’t happy with the result so in the end I let the L/mono send do the work. I did however slow the fast horn/ rotor speeds to around 5HZ or so as the faster speeds sounded unnatural to me even in stereo and especially in mono. The Yamaha basic organ samples are pretty good, but I think their rotary effect is the weak link in stereo or in mono.

5. I run all my sounds in Master Mode linked to Song/Pattern mode.
This gives me the ability to EQ the Voice itself in Voice Mode, then I can EQ each track in Song/Pattern Mode, and I can use the Master EQ if I’m still not happy. (I usually leave this flat) To me this makes most of the smaller mixers I would bring to a gig pretty redundant. I spend a fair amount of time making sure all my sounds
are loud enough and at the same volume and I use VCM compression in Song/Pattern Mode to help even things out. I’ll also compare sounds with the Nord Stage to check volume. So with the QSC K10, and my Voices set like this I rarely find myself in situations where I have trouble with volume.

6. This may be stating the obvious, but I always elevate my speaker so the tweeter is about ear level, and I keep it fairly close to me so I’m not blowing everyone onstage out. I also use a pair of custom musician earplugs to keep the frequencies pretty balanced.

Again, I’m not knocking playing in stereo, just pointing out there is a case to be made for playing in mono.

I agree.  Although, I run my stage rig in stereo using two Barbetta Sona Elan 41c amps, the FOH usually converts it to mono, unless I get the occasional real sound company that cares.  My rig sounds great on stage, however I rarely get out front to sample what my rig sounds like.  Of course, the sound company always tells me how great my keys sound and how great I play. (yeah right)

Even friends say that my rig sounds great, but I take that also with a grain of salt.

No big deal, I get paid at the end of the night and no one complains.

Just sayin’,

Kenny

hello,
1:  in my xs6 , utility, i/o, set the output in +6db
2: copy preset sound to user sound, and readjust the level sound
3: set the master effect with compressor vcm376 and equalizer

[quote author="5pinDIN]

If you still aren’t satisfied, I’ll be glad to discuss use of Master Effects and EQ, which will likely resolve any remaining issues.

I have this ‘volume problem’ and I’d like to have more info about the use of Master effect and Master EQ to increase volume.

5pinDIN, Did you write something about that? Can you give me some advice?

Thanks!

Maxweb
Motif XF

maxweb - 13 July 2018 12:09 AM

I have this ‘volume problem’ and I’d like to have more info about the use of Master effect and Master EQ to increase volume.

5pinDIN, Did you write something about that? Can you give me some advice?

Thanks!

Maxweb
Motif XF

A couple of threads discussing the issue for models other than the XF, but still applicable (however page numbers in manuals will differ)…
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/475505/
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/475801/

Note the suggestion by papaphoenix to try the VCM Compressor effect.
http://www.motifator.com/storage/support/Compressor1.pdf

You might also find this interesting:
http://www.motifator.com/storage/support/VM_EQ1.pdf

Many thanks, 5piNDIN.

I’m in an interesting situation:
I used for 10 years motif ES, I programmed so many sounds and performances, mixing voices, used in live and everything was OK. so when I decided to upgrade my keyboard I choose motif XF to save all my work.

I converted all sounds for my XF and the main difference between ES and XF was about volume, presence of sounds.
I know that you must work with preset sounds, but this is a considerable gap.
I started to set to 127 master volume, 127 volume of each sounds, increase volume of each element, but the main change I had was working with Master EQ. And with your help -5pinDIN- now I have an idea about how to work. Thanks.

BUT I have a problem:
If I change Master EQ in utility mode, it works for all voices, OK. in my situation I still have problems with volume, XF voice OK, ES voice too loud…
I was thinking to use EQ of single voice, but is different from Master EQ, not so punchy, less adjustment and different frequency.

what’s the best way to use EQ at voice level to increase volume?

Many thanks.

Maxweb
Motif XF

maxweb - 13 July 2018 02:13 PM

Many thanks, 5piNDIN.

You’re welcome.

 

maxweb -

[...]
BUT I have a problem:
If I change Master EQ in utility mode, it works for all voices, OK. in my situation I still have problems with volume, XF voice OK, ES voice too loud…
I was thinking to use EQ of single voice, but is different from Master EQ, not so punchy, less adjustment and different frequency.

what’s the best way to use EQ at voice level to increase volume?

As you noted, there’s EQ for individual Voices at the Element level, and is only 2-band, Parametric 1-band, or 6/12/18 dB boost. In your situation, the Master EQ in Utility mode could be used so that the XF Voices are satisfactory. You could then reduce the Volume setting for any ES Voices that are too loud - that only requires a single change per Voice.

Thanks for the reply

5pinDIN - 13 July 2018 03:44 PM

You could then reduce the Volume setting for any ES Voices that are too loud - that only requires a single change per Voice.

In this way all voice in a performance will change, and I need the “original” volume level. Very often volume 127 in a PART isn’t enough…

maxweb - 13 July 2018 05:01 PM

Thanks for the reply

5pinDIN - 13 July 2018 03:44 PM

You could then reduce the Volume setting for any ES Voices that are too loud - that only requires a single change per Voice.

In this way all voice in a performance will change, and I need the “original” volume level. Very often volume 127 in a PART isn’t enough…

Unfortunately, there are some limitations.

A possible workaround, if after editing ES Voices they’re too low when used as a Part in a Performance:
If you copy a Performance to a Song/Pattern Mixing, those ES Voices could be edited, Volume level restored as needed, and the edited Voice stored as a Mix Voice.

I was thinking about that solution, and this is an option that I already used and it works. but in my job I need even a faster solution. Adjusting sounds during rehearsal, or on the fly, during the gig, must be fast. too many sub-menu in mixing-voice. And, at the moment, I’m more ‘performance oriented’.

I’d like to know:
In the main page of VOICE MODE there is [F3]EG/EQ.
This is a global parameter, right? It affect the whole voice. Working with this parameter could be useful? The EQ is a 3 band EQ, but frequency is different, less parameter than Master EQ.
How to work with it?
Thanks!

Maxweb
Motif XF

maxweb - 13 July 2018 10:25 PM

[...]
I’d like to know:
In the main page of VOICE MODE there is [F3]EG/EQ.
This is a global parameter, right? It affect the whole voice.

Yes, that EQ is applied to all of the Elements of the particular Voice.

 

maxweb - 13 July 2018 10:25 PM

Working with this parameter could be useful? The EQ is a 3 band EQ, but frequency is different, less parameter than Master EQ.
How to work with it?

By adjusting all of the Parameters of the EQ, you should be able to get a reasonably flat boost.

For example, this provides about 6 dB of boost…

This provides about 8 dB of boost…

Both appear to be relatively flat, as shown by the EQ Graph.

If you need a different amount of boost, adjust the Gain settings. Unless you need an actual change in the EQ of the Voice, try to keep the Graph flat. The Frequency settings might have to be changed slightly to maintain flatness for other Gain settings.

Of course, STORE the Voice when the desired settings are found.