If you read the other post, you saw that I’m working on selling some sheet music.

I had a tune that I recorded using Cakewalk Sonar.  Trying to get it to output “Legitimate” notation is futile.

I instead saved the CAKEWALK data to a Type 1 MIDI file, then imported THAT into Finale Notepad ($10 software!)

Then, I made some minor changes in Notepad, and exported to MusicXML.

Then, I used Lilypond’s MusicXML 2.0 to Lilypond conversion, and made all remaining notations in Lilypond.

At this point, I had a fairly reasonable facsimile of what I played (quantization kills rubato performances, though...) I could have printed from there and been done, but the reader would have been stumped because of the weird note clusters one can’t play on a monophonic instrument…

So, it took me about 6 hours to tailor the output to be reader-friendly.

Anyone else have any experience doing this?

Most people I know use Sibelius or Finale (full), but comparing $600-$700 to $10, I think I came out on top for the few times I’ll be doing this....  And Lilypond’s output was quite excellent...and I barely scratched the surface of what it could do.

I’d like to go back and put chord changes over the top of some of the (currently written-out) ad libitum sections, but I have no idea how to transcribe “CHORDS” correctly… I’m not a keyboard player… ;) So, that’s a different subject.

I have to look askance at the idea of trying to have music transcribed automatically. The best way to transcribe an improvisation is to listen to it, try to replicate it on your instrument, and notate by hand your replication. Then transfer that into a notation program if you like. (I can get close to an engraved look by hand.)

Are you saying you improvised your chords--and that’s why you don’t know what they are? I would certainly never trust a machine to identify them correctly. If you tell me what notes are in them, I can take a stab at identifying them here.

CRAP!  My previous reply attached to the wrong topic!  What is going ON here?  Trying again…

Are you saying you improvised your chords--and that’s why you don’t know what they are? I would certainly never trust a machine to identify them correctly. If you tell me what notes are in them, I can take a stab at identifying them here.

I think it’s more of stylistic question than “What chord am I playing” thing, but that has something to do with it, too.

Let me pose a different example; the classic jass ii V7 I progression…

It could be written, perhaps, as Dm, G7, Cmaj.  As a performer, I know that I can vamp over ALL of those chords using notes from the C Major scale.  (the Dm7 being a D Dorian Minor (C scale), the G7 being a G Mixolydian (also a C scale)… They’re, note-wise, C major scales...)

But, going the REVERSE of that is what I don’t grasp.  If I hear someone playing notes that are all 100% within a D-Major scale, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the chord I would note would be D-Major throughout.  “TECHNICALLY” 100% correct, but “STYLISTICALLY” very boring and not of much help to the improvisor.

I’m hampered somewhat by the fact that I play by ear.  When I am comfortable with the changes, and can “hear” where things are going, I don’t usually need to think about the chords to hear the chord tones in my head.  I do understand the theory of this stuff, but practice in the reverse direction is something I’ve not done before. 

Now, SONAR does have a pretty good Chord Recognition plug-in.  It doesn’t shoe-horn the user into only textbook chords; it lists usually 2 or 3 alternates with different voicings…

Even though I’m still not quite sure what you mean, I’m also still fairly convinced that trying to get a machine to do whatever it is you want done is probably a bad idea.

Let’s suppose the tune as you originally envisioned it went Dm7, G7, Cmaj7 (if I had access to it, I’d use a delta instead of “maj")--your example. Improvising on these chords you might play, say, a C#, an A#, or an Ab against the G7. When you transcribe the improvisation you have the option of just writing “G7” or of writing “G7#11”, “G7#9”, or “G7b9”. Which of these you choose depends entirely on the perspective you want to project. From the improviser’s perspective the chord is G7, and from the listener’s perspective the chord includes the superimpositions (unless the listener is imagining himself as the improviser, as ideally he should be.) If you don’t know or don’t remember if you superimposed tertian extensions, simply transcribe your improvisation first and have a look.

Now, SONAR does have a pretty good Chord Recognition plug-in.  It doesn’t shoe-horn the user into only textbook chords; it lists usually 2 or 3 alternates with different voicings…

Absolutely do not have a piece of software voice your chords for you. If you are incapable of voicing them yourself, just use chord symbols.

It could be written, perhaps, as Dm, G7, Cmaj.  As a performer, I know that I can vamp over ALL of those chords using notes from the C Major scale.  (the Dm7 being a D Dorian Minor (C scale), the G7 being a G Mixolydian (also a C scale)… They’re, note-wise, C major scales...)

One of my pet peeves, and I’ve decided after all not to let it pass: Yes, they’re “note-wise C major scales”, but D Dorian (not “Dorian Minor") has to have a D tonal center and G Mixolydian has to have a G tonal center, whereas a C major scale will have a C tonal center. A Dm7 to G7 vamp gives you D Dorian; A G to F vamp (think “Tequila") gives you G Mixolydian; but Dm7 to G7 to Cmaj7 gives you C major the entire time and never D Dorian or G Mixolydian. (Yes, a soloist could superimpose a suggestion of a change of tonal centers as he goes, but not even someone like John Coltrane would normally do it on this progression, and even if he did the progression itself would still imply a C major tonality the whole while.)

Scotch, posting to your question to show the chords:

I’m going to try; this editor is messing with me.

See the attached BMP file.

The first chord is a different voicing of a C Major chord, with the C doubled and the E raised an octave, but still a C Major.

The second chord seems best described as G Major add4.

The third chord:  Not sure.  At first, I was thinking an A-, but realize that’s not right…

So, if I was noting this on a chart for an improviser, would I cue with:  Cmaj | G(add4) | (???) ?  As you pointed out in the other thread, the TONALITY throughout stays with the C, as hinted by the C being the bass of ALL those chords.  So, I’d be tempted just to cue only with the Cmaj.

(again, no access to the special delta symbol...)

Crap, this new forum is KILLING me.  It’s impossible to edit your own posts if you are the originator of the thread....

HERE’S the attachment…

Click thumbnail to see full-size image

Yay!  Now that I can see my own posts and replies,

Scotch, you still with me?  (You disappeared for a while.)

The most salient feature of this progression, as you mention, is the low C carried through all three chords. In classical theory the C in the second chord would be considered an non-harmonic (non-chord) tone, the particular one classified as a pedal tone. Notice how it is classically prepared as an harmonic tone and classically resolved as an harmonic tone.

In pop and jazz chord notation the second chord would normally be rendered G/C, meaning a G triad with a C in the bass, and that’s probably what I’d write. Your “cue[ing] only with Cmaj” suggests an interpretation of the second chord as a Cmaj9 with missing third (which I would write by putting a slash through the numeral 3), but that’s not how I’m hearing it (out of context).

If you don’t want to call the last chord a first-inversion Am7 (which in pop and jazz notation is usually rendered Am7/C), you could consider it a C6, but bear in mind that the chord tone most likely to be missing in conventional harmony is the fifth and the chord tone least likely to missing in conventional harmony is the third. It’s very easy to imply a fifth and easier even to imply the root than the third. The missing E here would be the fifth of Am7/C and the third of C6. (I’d be very wary of rendering an A minor triad or an A minor seventh chord as A-, by the way--even though the old Real Book did this--because the dash is more commonly interpreted to mean diminished. In other words, this is equivocal notation.)

The first chord is a different voicing of a C Major chord, with the C doubled and the E raised an octave, but still a C Major.

Well, different voicing from what? In four voices the root of a triad is most likely to be doubled, especially the root of a major triad, and more especially the root of a tonic major triad. The E being raised an octave only means the chord is a little more open than it would be otherwise and that E is part of the soprano voice. The voice-leading here is good.

To cut to the chase, I’d probably write C, G/C, Am7/C.

That’s exactly what I was after… Even though I read chords like that all the time (X/Y) I forget to use that when applicable…

Thanks for the advice.