Hello!

Well I bought my ES8 back in 2004 and haven’t needed much upgrade until now. I am recording and will be playing on stage regularly soon and don’t really want to haul the ES8 into a crowd of drunk people 3x a week.

I have been completely caught off-guard with how the synth world has changed in the last decade. Guitar Center barely has any full-featured keyboards anymore, and instead has filled it’s halls with midi controllers and boxes of Logic.

I realize I am at a crossroads here: Choose to progress with technology and move to softsynth and controller, or try to snatch up a soon-to-be-rare keyboard that is more portable than the bEaSt.

So my question to you guys is, who here has made the switch from board to computer on stage, and how did it turn out for you? What is good/bad/ugly about the different setups?

I’ve basically done it all in the following order:

1. Fender Rhodes Mark II suitcase model (ugh).
2. Ensoniq Mirage (fun! - gigged many years with this).
3. Roland Rhodes MKxxx (fun, but still heavy - gigged maybe 1 year with this).
4. Korg N1 (fun, cool, yet slightly heavy - gigged maybe 1 summer with this).

Enter heavy gigging here (roughly 2002):

5. Yamaha DGX-305 (fun, cool, light, and a powerful introduction into “styles” and arranger keyboards.
6. M-Audio Prokeys 88SX (INSANELY light, decent sounds, used it with DGX-305 because I didn’t like the 305’s organ - ran the M-Audio through a Boss Leslie pedal for leslie effects).

Current setup (started roughly in 2007?):
7. Yamaha PSR-S700 (next level of “arranger” but not to the Tyros level).
8. M-Audio Prokeys 88SX hooked to a Dell Inspiron laptop running M-Audio KeyRig software (piano, rhodes, wurly, B3 (yum!), analog synths).

Future setup (probably by 1/1/2012):
9. Yamaha XF8 (studio)
10. Yamaha XF7 (gigging)

Okay, now for my opinions:

Basically, even if you have an ultra stable laptop (which I do, the Inspiron is running a very stripped down version of XP (SP3)) I would STILL heavily recommend a HARDWARE solution to any keyboardist willing to listen.  By “hardware” keyboard, I mean, of course, either the arranger series (PSR’s and Tyros) or the Motif series.

Yes, I realize that there is software running inside hardware keyboards, BUT, in my experience, the software running therein is usually WAAAAAY more “bulletproof” than hooking a controller keyboard up to a laptop and running some kind of VST sound library.  Have I done that very thing (laptop/VST)?  Absolutely.  For about the last 2-3 years the M-Audio KeyRig VST library has been my “swiss army knife” of sounds (piano, rhodes, wurly, B3, analog synth) while the PSR handled mainly Drums/Bass for duos and trios.  But in my experience, even an ultra stable laptop hooked to a controller keyboard has way too many “points of failure” to contend with (don’t even get me started talking about firewire and mixers that dump their channels down firewire to a laptop...hoo boy...talk about feast or famine).

I also do not necessarily see the future as you do (that hardware keyboards are going away any time soon).  If anything, with the Motif series, the Tyros series, the Fantom (Roland), the Kronos (Korg), and all manner of other “also rans”, I think the hardware keyboard market is quite alive and kicking.

So...bottom line: if you were asking ME to spend YOUR money, based on what I’ve seen over the last 30 odd years, I would tell you to spend your money on hardware if you want a possibly less harrowing experience.

I have been working with my new XF8 in the studio for the past few days and all I can tell you is that this thing can do things that no amount of fiddling in a DAW with a VST can ever do and I am really pining away for the day when I bring ONE SINGLE KEYBOARD (the XF7) to the gig and “call it good”.  I might possibly be in a slightly different position than you because my “job” as arranger and ad hoc “leader” of the band is to provide the drums, bass, keys, and overall arrangement to whatever band configuration I happen to be in (duo, trio, etc.).  It sounds like perhaps you only have to worry about “keyboards” and not so much drums, bass, etc.  In THAT case, then yes, I can certainly see how you might be on the fence concerning a Motif (and all the possible unnecessary power it represents) vs. a simple controller keyboard hooked to a laptop controlling VST sound libraries.  I think in this case I would STILL recommend the Motif simply because you WILL be able to take advantage of the vast “music production” qualities of the Motif while in the studio and away from the “band”.

My two cents.

Kevin B. Selby
http://kevinselby.com <-- Peaceful Music
http://facebook.com/BajaDunes <-- Live Performance

selbalicious - 22 November 2011 07:33 PM

in my experience, the software running therein is usually WAAAAAY more “bulletproof” than hooking a controller keyboard up to a laptop and running some kind of VST sound library.

Could you be specific about issues you have had with your laptop on the gig?

I’m curious as I see more and more pros using them live and am starting to lean that way myself.

Perhaps the best way I can think of to reply is to simply list all the things that can go “wrong” in a controller keyboard/laptop scenario.

1. USB cable fails or gets unplugged.  Keyboard no longer triggers the sound library.
2. Laptop goes to sleep or hibernates or loses battery power.
3. Laptop circuitry causes noise in signal chain (I have successfully counteracted this with the EB Tech HumX - see: http://www.zzounds.com/item--EBTHUMX).
4. Controller keyboard not recognized by laptop and/or plug it into a DIFFERENT USB port and laptop goes through its “recognize the darn thing” loop and maybe fails.
5. VST Instrument library has unacceptable latency and/or some weird system spike causes latency for one tiny second but it’s in the middle of a song blah blah blah.
6. Laptop soundcard is misconfigured and/or gets muted or something else equally weird.  I’ve actually had Creative Labs high end ($300 high end) PCMCIA Soundblaster Audigy xxxx lose its mind and forget to listen to its software.

Can every one of those bullets be overcome?  Absolutely.

Contrast the above possibilities with a dedicated keyboard with internal sounds and adequate signal routing and every single one of those bullets above go away.  They simply don’t exist in a dedicated hardware unit.

I’ve had every one of those bullets happen to me at one time or another.  I have NEVER ONCE had a single issue of that nature with a dedicated hardware keyboard OR with a dedicated hardware recording unit (like a Zoom R16 - when compared to recording scenarios with an audio interface and a laptop/desktop trying to record a gig off the mixing board).

I’m NOT saying to avoid using laptops and VST libraries, I’m just saying go into it KNOWING all the possible pitfalls and you should be able to avoid and/or mitigate most, if not all, situations described above.

The ONLY reason I’ve been successful for going on 2 years now (with the M-Audio Prokeys 88SX and a Dell laptop running M-Audio KeyRig) is because:

1. I stripped XP (SP3) down to the bone and had NOTHING but the OS running.  Even killed virus protection and just never hooked it to my network.
2. I never changed anything once I got it stable.
3. I was very careful to always use the same USB cable and USB port on the laptop (I know...probably way too superstitious).
4. The laptop sat in a drawer when not in use.  You could say it was definitely a “dedicated” machine.
5. I carefully tested out any and all changes in the VST host (Live Professor - see: http://www.ifoundasound.com/).
6. I used the EB Tech HumX (see above link).
7. M-Audio KeyRig happens to be extremely well written, designed, and stable (in my opinion) and fairly low latency.  Don’t wanna know the pitfalls of other sound libraries.

Now...if money is no object, then have at it and get top of the line hardware/software, but I’ll wager you will STILL spend a fair amount of your time tweaking the dickens out of the systems to get solid REPEATABLE performance.  Hardware, on the other hand, is BUILT for solid, repeatable performance.  It has to be.

Hope that helps!

Kevin B. Selby
http://kevinselby.com <-- Peaceful Music
http://facebook.com/BajaDunes <-- Live Performance

Thanks, I’m well aware of all of those pitfalls. I’ve run into most of them at home at one time or another and learned how to deal with them.

BTW the problem with a controller not being recognized when you plug it into a different USB port is a Windows only “feature”, Macs don’t care.

Thx for the reply.

In response to the first post here, don’t take what you see at Guitar Center as any indication of what’s available. Take a look on-line at http://www.Sweetwater.com and you’ll find a wide selection of recently released hardware.

As far as software goes, I almost always see an Apple laptop where a computer is visible. My opinion is there are too many internal hardware variables with a PC.

Bob