Hi, I’m a longtime Sonar user and a new MOTIF Rack user.  The subject header says it all, I record a simple piano part in a new project and the XS is being used as a tone module.  The sound upon playback has that comb filtered sound of doubling - thin fizzy sounding piano.

My setup:
Sonar 8; RME Fireface MIDI/Analog Interface; KX8 controller; Mottix Rack XS

The motif is set to MIDI -> USB

Sonar has for midi in Connections: KX8 midi in/out to RME midi interface for Sonar; Motif to PC running Sonar via usb.

Local control is off on the Motif.  I recorded the piano piece from the KX8 and only recorded the midi data which I can look at in the piano roll view and have verified that the notes are not doubled in the midi file. I am using a single voice in the motif in voice mode (grand piano - the first factory voice that comes up when you power up the motif).

I then inserted a soft synth in Sonar, True Pianos and directed the midi file to play that instead of the Motif and have no doubling. I can not figure this out. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Midi doubling is usually an issue as you play the keyboard - not on play back from Sonar as there is generally only one midi source being used. Once you’re sure there is no midi doubling taking place, then your audio routing is probably the culprit. I use two tracks to record audio: one for left that is panned hard left, and one for right that is panned hard right. If you do not pan them hard left / right you’ll get that sound as well.

You say you’re in Voice mode, but if you’re in Multi mode and you have the rack set to address tracks 1 - 4 on the same receive channel (a utility setting to enable you to play them like a keyboard performance), then if you initialize a multi, you now have four pianos playing at once, and a big sound doubling problem.

Bob

Wow.  Yeah, you’re in a pickle. 

Does it still sound odd if you’re listening through the headphones attached directly to the MO?

Does it sound odd with ALL the MOTIF-XS voices, or just the piano?

Don’t use the PRV to verify the MIDI data.  Use the EVENT viewer.  If you’re truly doubling, PRV won’t show it unless you zoom in like mad since the events will be mere milliseconds apart.  (Though I agree, your setup doesn’t appear to lend itself to doubling!)

Do you have any MIDI EFFECTS loaded on the track?

What is the AUDIO path for the MO-XS to get out?  Include the audio interface AND The MO-XS in your description.

SpongeBob and Tony,
I really appreciate your quick comments and thoughts.  I know what you mean about piano roll view PRV and it being hard to see milisecond events but what I did was click on the middle of the note and dragged it thinking that it there was another lurking beneath it I would see it.  I’ll look at it in the event viewer.

My motif sound is coming out of the analog xs outputs into my mixer. The sonar audio out is coming out of my audio interface into another channel on my mixer but there is no audio in this test project.

I am wondering if it is an audio routing problem because I have the stand alone xs editor running at the same time as I’m playing back the file. Could the editor be outputting the sound and the doubling happens because XS editor monitoring + motif analog outs = doubled audio? 

I’ll go through all of this tonight and it will be a simple thing to eliminate the editor. I seem to remember something about setting up the monitoring with the editor.

I’ll report tomorrow and thanks!

Oh, I forgot to add that my audio interface is the RME fireface and I send my Sonar stero main mix to to rme outs and into my mixer which drives my studio monitors.  By listening to the headphone jack on the xs I will eliminate the mixer.  So I have some things to try and test.

Could the editor be outputting the sound and the doubling happens because XS editor monitoring + motif analog outs = doubled audio?

I doubt that; the XS editor, if it’s like the ES editor, doesn’t make any sounds of its own.

It MIGHT be doubling the MIDI data though.  I don’t really know if that’s possible, unless you’ve got the MIDI port definition in the editor set to ECHO or THRU…

Turn it off and see if the problem disappears.

All right, I have found the problem due to Tony’s suggestion to look at sysex data recorded on my midi track.

Sonar was set to record sysex and I have a KX8 controller set up as my keys. On my midi track I had recorded some sysex by turning a knob on the controllerf earlier while I was playing with the knobs to see how they worked and to record some data so I could look at what cc they were sending.  I had done something to the piano sound that affected the voice and made it sound doubled.

When I deleted all of the sysex from the midi piano performance I was playing, the doubling effect went away. That problem is solved!

Thanks Tony and SpongeBob.  The value of a good forum is that others help you find where to look for the answer.

I also saw a lot of other sysex data that was constantly being sent and recorded. I did some tests.  I recorded a midi track without anything playing but had the XS Editor running, the Motif XS Rack connected via usb, and the XK8 controller connected. I just recorded silence. I got lots of sysex data recorded. I unplugged my controller midi plugs and recorded the track, same result - a lot of midi sysex data recorded in Sonar.

The only thing left running was the Motif rack xs and the xs stand alone editor. I closed out of the editor and recorded silence again.  There was no sysex data in my recording.

I have repeated this.Just having the Yamaha Xs rack editor open sends a constant sream of sysex data. I have inserted a pic of the sysex data. This is not related to the doubling problem, just a discovery.  Should this be a different thread?

The question now is what is this stuff being sent by the XS Rack Editor? Is it necessary or can it be turned off? It is a constant stream of sysex. Thanks.

SonarSysex_20090701.doc  (File Size: 130KB - Downloads: 658)

The SysEx data is how the RACK XS and the PC EDITOR stay in Sync with one another. 

You can change anything on the SCREEN and it will update the RACK, and you can update anything on the RACK and it will show up on the SCREEN in real time.  SysEx is what’s doing that for you.

Looking at the MIDI IMPLEMENTATION chart, I can’t find a decode for what that string is actually CONTROLLING, but that’s what it’s DOING… :)

Well, it is all working nicely now.  My doubling of piano sound came from some cc data that was in my original track. I turned off recording of sysex data in Sonar and now all is well. The rack xs sounds great!