Is it possible to use an assignable sweep pedal on the Motif XF to control the tempo of a sequence (in song or pattern mode) or arpeggio (in performance mode)?

If yes, then HOW?

And is this possible using a Yamaha MFC10 or FC7 (otherwise, which pedal would you recommend)?

Welcome to the Forums!

Is it possible to use an assignable sweep pedal on the Motif XF to control the tempo of a sequence (in song or pattern mode) or arpeggio (in performance mode)?

No, it is not possible. There are 101 Control Set Destinations. Tempo is not one of them. Sorry.

The options you have are:
_ a dedicated Tempo knob
_ Tap tempo button
_ a dedicated Tempo Track in Song mode and in Pattern Chain
_ Tempo can be stored to a Song or Pattern SCENE. A Scene can be recalled in real time via a [SF] button or automated by the (linear) sequencer.
_ Set the MIDI SYNC parameter to EXT or AUTO and send clock from an external source via the active MIDI port.

See the following article:
Motif XS/XF Tempo Change

AsiaWest - 25 October 2013 10:48 PM

Is it possible to use an assignable sweep pedal on the Motif XF to control the tempo of a sequence (in song or pattern mode) or arpeggio (in performance mode)?

If yes, then HOW?

And is this possible using a Yamaha MFC10 or FC7 (otherwise, which pedal would you recommend)?

Depending on the range of tempo control required, you might be able to accomplish what you want using external hardware.

To control the tempo of an Arp in Performance Mode, a SysEx message can be sent. It’s of the form:
F0 43 1n 7F 12 30 30 01 mm ll F7
where:
n = Device Number (n = 0 for first device)
mm = Data MSB
ll = Data LSB

The tempo range is 5~300 BPM. Here’s how that’s determined:
mm = 00, ll = 05~7F yields 5~127 BPM
mm = 01, ll = 00~7F yields 128~255 BPM
mm = 02, ll = 00~2C yields 256~300 BPM
That is, it requires changing two bytes to cover the entire 5~300 range.

If you can work within any one of the above tempo ranges, there’s a device that will allow you to use an FC7 pedal to control things:
MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller
http://www.midisolutions.com/prodped.htm

Here’s info from MIDI Solutions that reveals why this would require staying within one of the ranges determined by the MSB:
System Exclusive Setting
The Pedal Controller can be programmed to send a System Exclusive message with one byte that varies in response to the pedal movement. The System Exclusive message can be a maximum of 20 bytes in length, the byte of the message that varies is selectable, as are the minimum and maximum values sent.

So with the MIDI Solutions device, you’d have to set the MSB, and the pedal would change the LSB value.

Disclaimer: Although I sometimes suggest MIDI Solutions products (and my avatar kind of looks like their logo), I have no connection with the company. I just like that their products can indeed provide “solutions”.

Interesting question here that brings up a couple of questions I had about pedals for the XF.

* Do I have to use a specific Yamaha Motif XF pedal? I thought I heard you did but I want to know if you can use a basic pedal that can be used with any other keyboard. (sorry I am a rookie still so I don’t know a lot, but I like my XF)

* Can I assign the function of the pitch bending wheel to a pedal? This would be an extreamly welcome function if I could.

* Can I use the pedal for assignable “Pan” function on a track in song or pattern mode? (If it is in the Manual I am sorry I could not find it)

* Is there some in depth threads from old posts that cover a lot of the functions of pedals that you can link to?

Thank you gentlemen, and have a good day.

Drew

Intercooler - 26 October 2013 07:34 AM

Interesting question here that brings up a couple of questions I had about pedals for the XF.[...]

See this support article. If you have further questions after reading it, just ask.

* Do I have to use a specific Yamaha Motif XF pedal? I thought I heard you did but I want to know if you can use a basic pedal that can be used with any other keyboard. (sorry I am a rookie still so I don’t know a lot, but I like my XF)

If you want to get the correct response you want to get a Yamaha FC3 for sustain to take advantage of the Half Dampering function, and an FC7 for sweep pedal functions (the XF’s can actually use two FC7 one for volume and the other as a programmable control.

It is true, you can use any momentary foot switch for the Assignable FOOT SWITCH as long as it has a Tip-Sleeve jack.

* Can I assign the function of the pitch bending wheel to a pedal? This would be an extreamly welcome function if I could.

No. Pitch Bend is its own class of message. But you can assign Coarse Tune to pedal… This will let control pitch with a pedal… But it is not quite the same thing as Pitch Bend). If you study the linked article on controllers you will learn about appropriate controllers and logical assignment of parameters to them.

Because the pedal goes 0-127, and pitch can be tuned up or down you may find it hard to use the pedal as an effective substitute for a self centering Wheel. But it’s up to you.

* Can I use the pedal for assignable “Pan” function on a track in song or pattern mode? (If it is in the Manual I am sorry I could not find it)

Yes. Programming takes within the VOICE.
Press [EDIT]
Press [COMMON EDIT]
Press [F4] CTRL SET - this where you begin to work with assigning physical controllers to parameter destinations.

See page 61 of the Reference Manual for details

Huge thanks to both Bad_Mister and SpinDin for your very informative and quick responses. You guys have saved me a lot of time [and from grief].

Sometimes, conditions during live performances are not ideal. There were occasions when my sequenced music turned out to be the only one out-of-sync with the rest of the band, and which needed to do the adjusting. I want to be able to make real-time tempo adjustments even while both my hands are simply unable to let go of the keys.

AsiaWest - 26 October 2013 11:06 PM

Huge thanks to both Bad_Mister and SpinDin for your very informative and quick responses. You guys have saved me a lot of time [and from grief].

Sometimes, conditions during live performances are not ideal. There were occasions when my sequenced music turned out to be the only one out-of-sync with the rest of the band, and which needed to do the adjusting. I want to be able to make real-time tempo adjustments even while both my hands are simply unable to let go of the keys.

I’ve determined there’s a SysEx message that’s apparently undocumented in the XF Data List.

To control tempo in Song Mode, this SysEx message can be sent:
F0 43 1n 7F 12 70 00 0B mm ll F7
I’ve emphasized the bytes that are different from the Arp Tempo message that I gave above. Otherwise, details such as MSB and LSB values are the same. Note that the BPM can only be changed in whole-number steps, unlike doing so in Song Mode from the XF’s panel (when using the Data Dial, [DEC/NO], or [INC/YES]), which allows for decimal incrementation. It’s more like using the TEMPO knob.

However, perhaps I can save you some more time. Just how useful having pedal control of tempo for the purpose you mentioned is debatable. It would seem that there would be two issues. First, somehow getting the pedal “synced” to the current tempo, so that a small initial movement didn’t cause a dramatic and unpredictable change. Secondly, that the pedal would likely have a wide range, causing it to be very difficult to make minor tempo corrections.

Sometimes, conditions during live performances are not ideal. There were occasions when my sequenced music turned out to be the only one out-of-sync with the rest of the band, and which needed to do the adjusting. I want to be able to make real-time tempo adjustments even while both my hands are simply unable to let go of the keys.

The best and really ONLY solution for using sequenced music in a “live” situation, is NOT trying to make the sequence match the musicians.

We are years away from putting ears on synthesizers… :-) and even if we did, it does not have a real brain. I highly recommend you do it the way the pros do it.

You have to have a monitor system so that the musicians can hear the sequenced tracks. Because (presumably) the musicians have ears and a brain attached, they can play along and adjust to the timing of the sequencer (which is accurate, so there should be no complaint there). The sequencer must be the band’s conductor!

Many bands try a method where they feed the sequence or a click to the drummer. This does not work well either… Oh it can work, but it puts undue pressure on the drummer. I’ve seen bands blame the drummer when they fall out of time.. I’ve seen bands breakup over this. It gives everyone else in the band the license to blame the poor drummer… Who hears the band speed ahead as they try to hold the band back on the beat. Impossible… It’s like trying to herd a bunch of cats… It’s all over the place.

The sequence has to act as the CONDUCTOR… and like in an orchestra everyone must follow the conductor. Trust me on this, any other way is going to be unsuccessful. When everyone can hear the sequence there can be no mistakes, there can be no problems, you can’t blame the drummer, they can’t blame the keyboard player trying to adjust the tempo while everyone else is playing… (That’s impossible by the way)

Why clicks are problematic: it gives tempo but not *where* in the song you are located. Say the band gets off tempo what is to prevent them from getting back in tempo but they might be playing 2-3-4-1, 2-3-4-1, etc… All of a sudden the sequence phrase starts and the brass fanfare on the bridge is a beat ahead of the band, why? Because in getting back in tempo the band is one beat late. The sequence has no ears and can’t adjust. And worse thing if all you will not know until a catastrophe occurs.

Why manually adjusting tempo is a problem: if audible it sounds like a train wreck. Your feet are your clumsiest limbs, you cannot, unless you are some kind of cyborg, adjust the tempo accurately with your feet. I’m just saying mere mortal humans are not typically that accurate.... You will send tempo all over the place, trust me. Sequencers do not play with bands… Bands can play along with sequencers.

Why being able to HEAR the sequence is the only way: in this scenario there is a way you can feed cues to the band via a quality monitor system such that everyone is comfortable with not only the tempo, but where in the song they are.

I’ve told this story before and I’ll give due credit to Phil Collins because I read it in an interview someone did with him back in the day… For the song “In the Air tonight” (the classic acappella vocal with the big gated drum entrance immortalized by Mike Tyson in the Hangover movie… Well that TR808 drum groove you hear was originally created to give Phil a timing reference for the vocal out front… In anticipation of the big drum entrance. Well after listening to it over and over, it wound up remaining in the final mix. The key point is, it has not only tempo, but the feel that would allow everyone to know where they are in the measure. It is far more inspiring to play with a groove than it is to play with a click, click, click…

I expanded on this and would never use a click again in the studio… A groove that acts as the CONDUCTOR made every musician relax with playing in time. In the studio I would feed a drum groove or rhythm track though the headphones. For “Live” dates feed the sequence CONDUCTOR through the monitor system. Have the band work out the kind of track or tracks that would provide the tempo, yet give everyone the feel and position within the measure… That would allow them to play comfortably.

Forget clicks, forget taking on the responsibility yourself.
Create a GUIDE or CONDUCTOR sequence that everyone can relate to. One person cannot guide the band and play in the band… Done with some thought you will never get lost, never get that icky feeling “are we on the beat or not”

Nothing worse than hearing the click, click, but because all the music is playing you can’t hear the accent that indicates ONE-two-three-four-ONE-two-three-four…

Just a thought. Hope it helps.

It’s really too bad that this wasn’t better understood by so many:
http://www.visualconductor.com/

It provides a visual cue with an easily discerned accent.

@5pinDIN

The tempo range is 5~300 BPM. Here’s how that’s determined:
mm = 00, ll = 05~7F yields 5~127 BPM
mm = 01, ll = 00~7F yields 128~255 BPM
mm = 02, ll = 00~2C yields 256~300 BPM
That is, it requires changing two bytes to cover the entire 5~300 range.

If you can work within any one of the above tempo ranges, there’s a device that will allow you to use an FC7 pedal to control things:
MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller
http://www.midisolutions.com/prodped.htm

Here’s info from MIDI Solutions that reveals why this would require staying within one of the ranges determined by the MSB:
System Exclusive Setting
The Pedal Controller can be programmed to send a System Exclusive message with one byte that varies in response to the pedal movement. The System Exclusive message can be a maximum of 20 bytes in length, the byte of the message that varies is selectable, as are the minimum and maximum values sent.

So with the MIDI Solutions device, you’d have to set the MSB, and the pedal would change the LSB value.

Our songs tend to be below 256 BPM. Hence, I would only be programming the MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller to operate “within” the first two ranges (where mm = 00 and mm = 01).

Since the Motif XF has two inputs for two controller pedals (assuming I would go this route), I may simply connect two FC7s each with MIDI Solutions Pedal Controllers (one programmed for mm = 00 and the other for mm = 01) to each of these two inputs. I haven’t tried this yet, so I’m not sure how this is going to work.

Bad_Mister - 27 October 2013 05:33 AM

…

I expanded on this and would never use a click again in the studio… A groove that acts as the CONDUCTOR made every musician relax with playing in time. In the studio I would feed a drum groove or rhythm track though the headphones. For “Live” dates feed the sequence CONDUCTOR through the monitor system. Have the band work out the kind of track or tracks that would provide the tempo, yet give everyone the feel and position within the measure… That would allow them to play comfortably.

Forget clicks, forget taking on the responsibility yourself.
Create a GUIDE or CONDUCTOR sequence that everyone can relate to. One person cannot guide the band and play in the band… Done with some thought you will never get lost, never get that icky feeling “are we on the beat or not”

Nothing worse than hearing the click, click, but because all the music is playing you can’t hear the accent that indicates ONE-two-three-four-ONE-two-three-four…

Just a thought. Hope it helps.

I would re-think my strategy and try your recommendation. I imagine re-routing/assigning the drum track (or whichever track that would function as the CONDUCTOR track) to the asL&R; outputs and pipe them through the system to be sent to each of our band member’s [ear] monitor.

The advise I get here is just phenomenal--not only technically but also musically--Thanks!

AsiaWest - 27 October 2013 09:28 PM

@5pinDIN

Our songs tend to be below 256 BPM. Hence, I would only be programming the MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller to operate “within” the first two ranges (where mm = 00 and mm = 01).

Since the Motif XF has two inputs for two controller pedals (assuming I would go this route), I may simply connect two FC7s each with MIDI Solutions Pedal Controllers (one programmed for mm = 00 and the other for mm = 01) to each of these two inputs. I haven’t tried this yet, so I’m not sure how this is going to work.

What I’ve described won’t work by using the XF’s pedal inputs. The MIDI Solutions device has its own input for the pedal, and MIDI output (and input). Connection to the XF would be via MIDI. Cascading two of the devices could allow for operation over the tempo ranges as you mentioned, but I’d suggest checking with MIDI Solutions before trying that.

When you originally posted, it wasn’t clear why you wanted pedal control of tempo. What I described will work, but it’s probably best reserved for use as an effect (which is what I initially thought the purpose might have been). Once you explained the intended usage, the practicality came into question. As Bad_Mister explained, having the sequencer be the conductor is a much more appropriate approach.

5pinDIN - 28 October 2013 01:59 AM

What I’ve described won’t work by using the XF’s pedal inputs. The MIDI Solutions device has its own input for the pedal, and MIDI output (and input). Connection to the XF would be via MIDI. Cascading two of the devices could allow for operation over the tempo ranges as you mentioned, but I’d suggest checking with MIDI Solutions before trying that.

Excuse my [profound] ignorance. It “struck me stupid” that you were talking about the MIDI input of course and not the input for the foot pedal, and thus cascading these devices indeed may be the way to go. I would follow your counsel and ask MIDI Solutions about this intended configuration.

5pinDIN - 28 October 2013 01:59 AM

When you originally posted, it wasn’t clear why you wanted pedal control of tempo. What I described will work, but it’s probably best reserved for use as an effect (which I what I initially thought the purpose might have been). Once you explained the intended usage, the practicality came into question. As Bad_Mister explained, having the sequencer be the conductor is a much more appropriate approach.

I’d prefer to exhaust all possible alternatives that could potentially make me more flexible in dealing with or responding to information I only get precisely during live performances.

Also, if what I was thinking is at all doable, I believe that songs, which we involve the participation of [the untrained/unrehearsed] audience not only in our “secular” gigs but especially in church where I also play, would be way easier for them to follow.

Your tech savvy recommendations are helpful as always---Thanks!