That behavior you are looking for must be remapped.

There are five different resolution tables for the KNOBS. You select the appropriate one for your specific needs - if you are knob tweaker type you will want to opt for the lowest amount of change per click, if you are a programmer you might opt for a greater change per click. But to not adjust this parameter is to criticize the filters and the knobs prematurely, if nothing else.

The feel of the knob I find is what is most disconcerting to most. Try the different tables until you find the appropriate fit for you.

Constantly on the look out for new techniques I highly recommend that you get ahold of the iPad apps… The XY Control offers a unique way to take advantage of the filters of today… Far, far better than a knob, it takes about 3 minutes before you find stuff you could never do with a knob and you’ve forgotten the fact that “they don’t make the knobs like they used to… “ lament that you’ve been on.

One of the areas that is available to explore as an alternative: the touch pad interface as found in the “Faders & Pad” app and the “Performance Essentials” are far more compelling interface to work with filters, for example, in a live performance way. Fashion sweeps that previously you’d never have conceived of ... If you’ve ever worked both Cutoff and Resonance knobs together to create elegant howls, then you have to get an iPad and see what I mean.

I’d say if the sweep Foot pedal makes a poor choice as a pitch bender (especially if you require to bend pitch both up and down), then you might consider the continuous turn knob interface as not optimal for the classic 7-5 o’clock knob-twister person in you. Move on, try a different method of control.

Sweeping the filter with the perpetual motion gravity ball on an iPad retina display is how you should consider sweeping filters now… I wouldn’t recommend it if I didn’t think it worth the time and effort for the person who likes real time tactile control… True the smooth surface of glass is not a knob, but this is the 21st Century… And its time to move on.

MeMyselfAndI64 - 26 November 2013 12:53 PM

That,s how I read it to....anyway I did one last test with MIDI-OX.

First test! I had it on Table 3 (default) and turned knob “quite fast” and it skips.

Second test! on Table 1 and it,s huge difference!! I would say that it don`t skip at all.

But I leave it to the people that have big issues with this!

Thanks for doing additional testing and posting about it. It would seem that for many users (although I’m sure not all) having “big issues” will find this helpful.

(I must say that Yamaha did a good job of hiding the “Knob Curve” information in the manual. :-)  )

5pinDIN - 26 November 2013 12:20 PM

By the way, I just checked and page 144 of the MOX Reference Manual also explains this Knob Curve setting, so it’s apparently not something new…

...and apparently neither is the discussion (or some of the detractors):
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/455710/

Thanks for finding that link, 5pinDIN. I currently use the older MOX6, but in all my Forum searches had not found this previous discussion about filter jumping, nor a mention of the knob curve setting. This is better than no solution, I suppose.

At the very least I’m going to try setting my MOX Knob Curve to “1” and see if it gets me any closer to the joy of manual filter sweeping I enjoy on my Motif ES knobs!

Bad_Mister - 26 November 2013 01:17 PM

Constantly on the look out for new techniques I highly recommend that you get ahold of the iPad apps… The XY Control offers a unique way to take advantage of the filters of today… Far, far better than a knob, it takes about 3 minutes before you find stuff you could never do with a knob and you’ve forgotten the fact that “they don’t make the knobs like they used to… “ lament that you’ve been on.

One of the areas that is available to explore as an alternative: the touch pad interface as found in the “Faders & Pad” app and the “Performance Essentials” are far more compelling interface to work with filters, for example, in a live performance way. Fashion sweeps that previously you’d never have conceived of ... If you’ve ever worked both Cutoff and Resonance knobs together to create elegant howls, then you have to get an iPad and see what I mean.

Sweeping the filter with the perpetual motion gravity ball on an iPad retina display is how you should consider sweeping filters now… I wouldn’t recommend it if I didn’t think it worth the time and effort for the person who likes real time tactile control… True the smooth surface of glass is not a knob, but this is the 21st Century… And its time to move on.

Thanks for the recommendation for alternatives, Phil. Exactly why I’m planning to purchase an iPad along with a new Motif XF. I think it will open new avenues of “controllerism” to me until that brain-to-MIDI interface is perfected. At least I can be wireless til then!

pkadidlo - 26 November 2013 01:38 PM

5pinDIN - 26 November 2013 12:20 PM

By the way, I just checked and page 144 of the MOX Reference Manual also explains this Knob Curve setting, so it’s apparently not something new…

...and apparently neither is the discussion (or some of the detractors):
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/455710/

Thanks for finding that link, 5pinDIN. I currently use the older MOX6, but in all my Forum searches had not found this previous discussion about filter jumping, nor a mention of the knob curve setting. This is better than no solution, I suppose.

At the very least I’m going to try setting my MOX Knob Curve to “1” and see if it gets me any closer to the joy of manual filter sweeping I enjoy on my Motif ES knobs!

Tell us if YOU think it,s better with an lower setting.

As this seems to trouble people and the option is a bit hidden
both in manual and the menu:)

Nothing is hidden, unless you mean hidden in plain sight. Reading is the only skill necessary to find it. It is no more hidden than any other parameter. Hidden in that it was information you perhaps did not know. Is it any more hidden than the Mic/Line parameter? Much of what is explained in any manual are things you don’t know. Problem is if you draw a conclusion based on what you were supposed to have read and that conclusion just might have been drawn on wrong, incomplete or faulty information.

I’ve met people who ‘thought’ as the filter revealed different pitches that the “harmonic series” was “stepping”. They’d ask, in all sincerity, where all the pitches in between the harmonic steps were. I’ve had people not realize that a velocity/touch sensitive knob is designed to advance through values according to how fast you move the knob… That bit of information is ignored by many, at the peril of hearing the filter jump all over the place the faster they move the knob. It’s a feature, but, of course, just not from their perspective

Er, right, nothing unusual there, unless you thought you were moving a knob that was sending all the values, all the time. In order to demonstrate the so called “knob issue” these folks will wildly turn the knob back and forth, and with a strange kind of glee proudly state “see, see hear how it is stepping”. The “wild” movement is so described because no instrument sound actually requires that movement… It’s more they’ve found something they think they need. Who knows? Only they know what the purpose is…

If it hurts when you bend your arm in the opposite direction at the elbow, then the solution is simple: don’t do that.
If you set the resolution to the lowest setting and ‘you’ still outspeed your need to wildly twist that velocity/touch sensitive knob, then, please, find a different controller option, they are available. It’s really that simple.

A skill that will also help (hurt to repeat myself) but reading it again it may get through… Is setting the range of movement of a controller so that it optimized for the gesture you want to make. By setting the effective range you essentially are customizing the amount of controller movement that is require to get the result you need.

For example, the foot pedal doing volume typical controls 0 (heel down) to 127 (toe down) but you can actually set the heel down to a non-zero value and the toe down to a non-127 value… Effectively optimizing that controller to a range of musical usefulness.

I agree with you 100%

It,s not hidden, but I noticed a lot of people have an trouble with this...I have not!

I just find it funny that people complain about something, but they don`t check the manual before complaining.

Then again people don`t read manuals anymore.

Bad_Mister - 27 November 2013 05:44 AM

I’ve met people who ‘thought’ as the filter revealed different pitches that the “harmonic series” was “stepping”. They’d ask, in all sincerity, where all the pitches in between the harmonic steps were. I’ve had people not realize that a velocity/touch sensitive knob is designed to advance through values according to how fast you move the knob… That bit of information is ignored by many, at the peril of hearing the filter jump all over the place the faster they move the knob. It’s a feature, but, of course, just not from their perspective

Er, right, nothing unusual there, unless you thought you were moving a knob that was sending all the values, all the time. In order to demonstrate the so called “knob issue” these folks will wildly turn the knob back and forth, and with a strange kind of glee proudly state “see, see hear how it is stepping”. The “wild” movement is so described because no instrument sound actually requires that movement… It’s more they’ve found something they think they need. Who knows? Only they know what the purpose is…

If it hurts when you bend your arm in the opposite direction at the elbow, then the solution is simple: don’t do that.
If you set the resolution to the lowest setting and ‘you’ still outspeed your need to wildly twist that velocity/touch sensitive knob, then, please, find a different controller option, they are available. It’s really that simple.

Well, maybe it’s because I came from using the Motif and S90ES boards prior to purchasing the mostly-great MOX6 that I expected to be able to adjust the performance parameters (not just the filter, Phil) such as volume at the same “speed” I could with faders and (Motif only) knobs (which sometimes people do in real-world performance, not just “wild” knob twisting/fader pushing for the sake of testing limits). I didn’t think that a detented endless rotary encoder would present a barrier to accomplishing the same thing on the MOX. And maybe it’s not the rotary pot’s fault.

I try using the pattern/song mode and Mixes on the MOX6 and make frequent use of the volume control to balance the sounds. But honestly, try adjusting the volume/pan/filter of tracks (other than verrrry slowly twisting the knob) while a sequence is playing and you’ll see even glitchier/delayed performance from those performance controls. I do think there is a hardware/CPU limitation aspect here and users will just have to live with those the way we live with things that a laptop does better than a tablet, etc.

I also use sequences on the Motif ES and can rapid-adjust faders/knobs til the cows come home and the think doesn’t blink. Can you guess which of the two keyboards I end up using for live performance?

BTW, I would be tempted to sell both my ES7 and the MOX6 and get a new MOXF8 to save my back. But not while there is this (to me) problem. Not the way I choose and frankly NEED to use my gear to accomplish the goal I’m after, things like using DYNAMICS, timbral adjustments, on the fly, no twitching and glitching.

That said, I think the MOXF is a great update, a solid piece of music technology, and perfect for 95% of the users out there.

Bad_Mister - 27 November 2013 05:44 AM

Nothing is hidden, unless you mean hidden in plain sight. Reading is the only skill necessary to find it. It is no more hidden than any other parameter. Hidden in that it was information you perhaps did not know. [...]

Since I was the one who initially made the comment in an earlier post - ”(I must say that Yamaha did a good job of hiding the “Knob Curve” information in the manual. :-) )” - I feel that I should respond.

I can’t argue with the benefit of reading manuals, but having to read every last word on every page in order to find something that relates to basic operation of a product shouldn’t be expected of a user.

Page 14 of the MOXF Owner’s Manual includes the following for the Data Dial: ”If a parameter with a wide value range is selected, you can change the value in broader strokes by quickly turning the dial.”. On page 12, information for Knobs 1-8 does not include that statement, and there’s certainly no indication there that the rate can be changed via a Knob Curve setting. Page 12 refers to page 28, but that page also provides no hint.

I decided to give the MOXF Reference Manual a read. An entry concerning knob function on page 54 doesn’t help with the issue, only suggesting: ”For instructions, see the Owner’s Manual.”. The same on page 74. I found the following on page 17:
Knobs
These eight knobs let you change various aspects of the Voice’s sound in real time—while you play. The eight sliders let you adjust the volume of the Voice Elements, Performance Parts and Mixing Parts. For instructions on using the knobs in the Voice/Performance mode, see the Owner’s Manual. For instructions on using the knobs in the Song/Pattern mode, see page 124.

All of the manual locations I mentioned were missed opportunities to refer to the Knob Curve information located in the Reference Manual.

By the way, anyone who’s coming to the defense of the manuals, please explain the sentence ”The eight sliders let you adjust the volume of the Voice Elements, Performance Parts and Mixing Parts.” as it relates to the MOXF’s “eight sliders”.

I own a significant number of Yamaha products, and I usually feel comfortable in defending their performance and reliability. My experience with those products over the years has probably made me more familiar than many other folks with Yamaha’s approach to things - but I still find that the manuals often leave something to be desired. Much of what’s discussed in Motifator forums is empirical evidence of that.

I know how difficult it can be to write a decent user’s manual. (I’ve turned down job offers to do technical writing because I recognize that difficulty.) Hopefully others will see that there’s room for improvement.

5pinDIN - 27 November 2013 08:41 AM

Bad_Mister - 27 November 2013 05:44 AM

Nothing is hidden, unless you mean hidden in plain sight. Reading is the only skill necessary to find it. It is no more hidden than any other parameter. Hidden in that it was information you perhaps did not know. [...]

Since I was the one who initially made the comment in an earlier post - ”(I must say that Yamaha did a good job of hiding the “Knob Curve” information in the manual. :-) )” - I feel that I should respond.

I can’t argue with the benefit of reading manuals, but having to read every last word on every page in order to find something that relates to basic operation of a product shouldn’t be expected of a user.

I own a significant number of Yamaha products, and I usually feel comfortable in defending their performance and reliability. My experience with those products over the years has probably made me more familiar than many other folks with Yamaha’s approach to things - but I still find that the manuals often leave something to be desired. Much of what’s discussed in Motifator forums is empirical evidence of that.

I know how difficult it can be to write a decent user’s manual. (I’ve turned down job offers to do technical writing because I recognize that difficulty.) Hopefully others will see that there’s room for improvement.

5pinDIN, I think that, judging from your post I’ve read here, you’d do a damn fine job writing technical manuals!

PK

pkadidlo - 27 November 2013 11:21 AM

5pinDIN, I think that, judging from your post I’ve read here, you’d do a damn fine job writing technical manuals!

PK

Thanks, I appreciate your confidence in my abilities. I realize we’re getting further off-topic here, but let me explain what I see as the challenge…

If the writer isn’t sufficiently familiar with a product, it’s likely that certain things will either be inadequately or even incorrectly explained. On the other hand, if the writer knows the product well, there’s a tendency to cover most aspects of it… but to leave out certain details, because in the writer’s mind those things are obvious or trivial.

So the writer needs to be well acquainted with the subject matter, but still able to put himself in the position of a user who doesn’t possess the knowledge yet. The difficulty in writing from that standpoint is to do it without boring the reader who already understands the basics, or overwhelming the one who doesn’t. I suspect that being bored or feeling overwhelmed are common causes of manuals not being read.

5pinDIN wrote: “...I suspect that being bored or feeling overwhelmed are common causes of manuals not being read.”

That, and all too small a font for aging eyes! I have tried to read the Yamaha data manual and simply cannot see type that small. At least I can open a PDF version and increase the point size.

OK, maybe I’ve missed something, but is this (issue) still open?

Wondering because I saw the new MoxF OS here:

https://yamahasynth.com/index.php?option=com_easydiscuss&view=post&id=4483&Itemid=851

But without mention the problem discussed in this thread.

So… Case closed!?

K-Player - 30 January 2016 10:24 PM

OK, maybe I’ve missed something, but is this (issue) still open?

Wondering because I saw the new MoxF OS here:

https://yamahasynth.com/index.php?option=com_easydiscuss&view=post&id=4483&Itemid=851

But without mention the problem discussed in this thread.

So… Case closed!?

The MOXF OS V1.11 was made available on December 8, 2015 and mentioned a few days later in this thread:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/476407/

I don’t believe we know anything more about it than what Yamaha stated. To my knowledge, nobody has said it addresses the issue discussed in this thread.