DNGmaestro - 25 November 2013 10:48 AM

Why are you still talking about 128 midi values...? lol

It has absolutely nothing to do with it.

But using them as a an example, on the moxf it seems they “step” from 100 to 90 to 80 to 70 etc..
Instead of 100, 99, 98 , 97.

I’m guessing they used an inferior harware processor or something that can’t quite handle the sweeps of the xs or xf engines.

Just tested the “stepped filter” complaint on an “analog synth” style voice on the MOXF - Pre 4: H3 Huge CS80. Hooked up a MIDI cable
from the MIDI OUT of a Motif XF to the MIDI IN of the MO XF. Moved the
cutoff and resonance knobs on the Motif XF. No stepping.

The “stepping” you speak of is the MO XF knobs “stepping”. Unlike the Motif XF which has smooth rotary knobs, the knobs on the MO XF move
in “clicked” increments. You should be able to feel that simply by
moving them.

The synth engines on the XF and the MO XF are identical.

DNGmaestro - 25 November 2013 10:48 AM

Why are you still talking about 128 midi values...? lol

It has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Perhaps you don’t understand how the controllers and tone generator are connected to each other. MIDI isn’t limited to what’s transmitted or received via the 5-pin-DIN or USB ports. You might want to take a look at the Functional Blocks diagram on page 3 of the MOXF Reference Manual, and pay attention to the blue arrows, which show MIDI Message Flow.
 

DNGmaestro -

But using them as a an example, on the moxf it seems they “step” from 100 to 90 to 80 to 70 etc..
Instead of 100, 99, 98 , 97.

I’m guessing they used an inferior harware processor or something that can’t quite handle the sweeps of the xs or xf engines.

I’m trying not to guess. I see that DavePolich has posted with some additional information, and I’m going to reply to his message.

DavePolich - 25 November 2013 12:10 PM

Just tested the “stepped filter” complaint on an “analog synth” style voice on the MOXF - Pre 4: H3 Huge CS80. Hooked up a MIDI cable
from the MIDI OUT of a Motif XF to the MIDI IN of the MO XF. Moved the
cutoff and resonance knobs on the Motif XF. No stepping.

The “stepping” you speak of is the MO XF knobs “stepping”. Unlike the Motif XF which has smooth rotary knobs, the knobs on the MO XF move
in “clicked” increments. You should be able to feel that simply by
moving them.

The synth engines on the XF and the MO XF are identical.

Thanks for the above. From what MeMyselfAndI64 posted, it seems that the MOXF knobs output the same number of data values (per full rotation) via MIDI as those of the XF. That appears to be independent of any detents that the MOXF controls might have.

Dave, you didn’t say outright if there is audible stepping when using the MOXF’s own knobs. If so, could you do one more “test” please? Would you turn Local Control off, connect a cable between the MOXF’s MIDI-OUT and MIDI-IN, and see if there’s any difference in the stepping audibility? I know that in theory having the MOXF’s Local Control on versus doing what I asked should have the same result - but if both the MOXF and XF are putting out 128 data values via MIDI, and you determined that controlling the MOXF via an XF doesn’t cause audible stepping, then what the heck is going on?

5pinDIN - 25 November 2013 12:46 PM

DavePolich - 25 November 2013 12:10 PM

Just tested the “stepped filter” complaint on an “analog synth” style voice on the MOXF - Pre 4: H3 Huge CS80. Hooked up a MIDI cable
from the MIDI OUT of a Motif XF to the MIDI IN of the MO XF. Moved the
cutoff and resonance knobs on the Motif XF. No stepping.

The “stepping” you speak of is the MO XF knobs “stepping”. Unlike the Motif XF which has smooth rotary knobs, the knobs on the MO XF move
in “clicked” increments. You should be able to feel that simply by
moving them.

The synth engines on the XF and the MO XF are identical.

Thanks for the above. From what MeMyselfAndI64 posted, it seems that the MOXF knobs output the same number of data values (per full rotation) via MIDI as those of the XF. That appears to be independent of any detents that the MOXF controls might have.

Dave, you didn’t say outright if there is audible stepping when using the MOXF’s own knobs. If so, could you do one more “test” please? Would you turn Local Control off, connect a cable between the MOXF’s MIDI-OUT and MIDI-IN, and see if there’s any difference in the stepping audibility? I know that in theory having the MOXF’s Local Control on versus doing what I asked should have the same result - but if both the MOXF and XF are putting out 128 data values via MIDI, and you determined that controlling the MOXF via an XF doesn’t cause audible stepping, then what the heck is going on?

No audible stepping when hooked up as you suggested.

DavePolich - 25 November 2013 01:10 PM

The “stepping” you speak of is the MO XF knobs “stepping”. Unlike the Motif XF which has smooth rotary knobs, the knobs on the MO XF move
in “clicked” increments. You should be able to feel that simply by
moving them.

yeah i noticed that when I tested it with MIDI-OX! The clicking increment makes it feel like it,s stepping more than it,s really does....

I don`t know what the issue is...so the MOFX filter are stepping when doing it manually. If you are an nob twister there is other alternatives out there....

Comparing the Motif with MOFX well I think we can do it for days without getting anywhere...Opinions are always divided!

Lets make music instead:)

DavePolich - 25 November 2013 01:10 PM

5pinDIN - 25 November 2013 12:46 PM

Dave, you didn’t say outright if there is audible stepping when using the MOXF’s own knobs. If so, could you do one more “test” please? Would you turn Local Control off, connect a cable between the MOXF’s MIDI-OUT and MIDI-IN, and see if there’s any difference in the stepping audibility? I know that in theory having the MOXF’s Local Control on versus doing what I asked should have the same result - but if both the MOXF and XF are putting out 128 data values via MIDI, and you determined that controlling the MOXF via an XF doesn’t cause audible stepping, then what the heck is going on?

No audible stepping when hooked up as you suggested.

Thanks again. Now that’s a revelation.

If there’s audible stepping when Local Control is on, but not when it’s off and the connection is made externally via MIDI, the implication is that something strange is going on when the data from the controllers is routed internally to the tone generator section.

Yamaha might want to investigate that further…

DNGmaestro, in the meantime please let us know if turning Local Control off and connecting the MOXF’s MIDI-OUT to its MIDI-IN sounds better to you.

MeMyselfAndI64 - 25 November 2013 01:26 PM

DavePolich - 25 November 2013 01:10 PM

The “stepping” you speak of is the MO XF knobs “stepping”. Unlike the Motif XF which has smooth rotary knobs, the knobs on the MO XF move
in “clicked” increments. You should be able to feel that simply by
moving them.

[...]Comparing the Motif with MOFX well I think we can do it for days without getting anywhere...Opinions are always divided!

Lets make music instead:)

I agree that making music is what it’s all about, but DavePolich‘s message right after the one you quoted seems to indicate that we are getting somewhere.

Let me clarify something. 5pin din, I should have said, yes I can hear
stepping when the MO XF is hooked up as you suggested. But is it ACTUALLY
“stepping”? No.

I’ve never heard any audible “stepping” of the MO XF filter, ever, under
any circumstances. The “stepping” is simply illusory because the MO XF’s
knobs have detents, and there is really no way to do a smooth rotary move
with them. In other words, the USER is doing the stepping, not the MO XF.

There is no way to place the knobs at a point BETWEEN detents. So, as
long as you use the MO XF’s knobs to change things like a filter cutoff,
you are going to hear what you think is “stepping”. End of story.

The same thing happens on my Prophet 08. The knobs are detented, they don’t rotate smoothly. And this always results in what seems like
“stepping” when changing something like filter cutoff.

It’s just a simple hardware matter. In a live performance, no one would
ever hear it. If it bugs you in your studio, then use another controller
to control the MO XF. That’s what I tried - using the Motif XF to control
the MO XF. No audible stepping.

The filter itself is not “inferior”. It’s the same as on the XF, meaning,
it’s one of the best digital filters around.

DNGmaestro - 25 November 2013 03:42 AM

Bad_Mister - 25 November 2013 01:23 AM

You realize those KNOBS are offsets to the actual filter cutoff frequency and resonance amounts of as many as eight separate actual filters.
By just picking “any Voice” you can’t really know what you are doing with that filter knob (can you?) just saying…

Choose ANY SAME VOICE on both a motif xf and a moxf.
Sweep both filters.
Check the smooth filter on xf. Check the horrible stepping filter on the moxf.

There is absolutely no excuse for that.
It’s the most horrible filter stepping i’ve ever heard on any keyboard, of any time, including budget ones, and there’s no reason for that.
I also found out it was an issue on the MOX on a Future Music magazine review, where they gave it a good review but one of the main problems was the filter stepping so horrendously bad, unlike other yamaha boards.

I had posted a similar concern in a separate thread. Glad to see someone else has noticed how “twitchy” the filter is when sweeping it from the front panel knob. Owning both a Motif ES and a MOX6 I’ve had ample opportunity to compare how the filter values respond from the control knob of each instrument. I had figured that “cutting corners” on the MOX to bring down the cost meant perhaps the CPU couldn’t keep up with the sudden value changes, unlike my ES which had perfectly smooth adjustments at any speed throughout the entire travel of the knob.

I was eager to test out the MOXF to see if the upgraded specs solved this problem. Today I played a MOXF8 and Motif XF8 side by side and was very saddened to observe the same sluggish response in the MOXF as I had experienced with the earlier model MOX. And just for comparison I tried to twist the knobs on the Motif crazily. Not once did it skip, glitch or hiccup. Smooth City.

I did note that some patches that assign the Mod Wheel to the filter seem to not glitch when you move the wheel quickly. But it’s ridiculous that if you’re going to have knobs to tweak filters in this day and age that they would have smooth response. I don’t even mind if it’s limited to 128 steps, so long as it doesn’t jump by 10 or 20 steps because either the knob algorithm or the filter algorithm aren’t programmed well.

Sorry, Yamaha--that problem should have been dealt with in this upgrade. You did so much else right in updating the MOX. This is a deal-breaker for this Yamaha fan. Looks like I’ll be buying a Motif XF to replace both my ES and my MOX.

MeMyselfAndI64 - 25 November 2013 01:26 PM

DavePolich - 25 November 2013 01:10 PM

The “stepping” you speak of is the MO XF knobs “stepping”. Unlike the Motif XF which has smooth rotary knobs, the knobs on the MO XF move
in “clicked” increments. You should be able to feel that simply by
moving them.

yeah i noticed that when I tested it with MIDI-OX! The clicking increment makes it feel like it,s stepping more than it,s really does....

I don`t know what the issue is...so the MOFX filter are stepping when doing it manually. If you are an nob twister there is other alternatives out there....

Comparing the Motif with MOFX well I think we can do it for days without getting anywhere...Opinions are always divided!

Lets make music instead:)

If the MOX/XF rotary encoder knobs don’t have a 1:1 correlation between each ‘click’ and a single increment/decrement of the sent/displayed value that is modifying the parameter assigned to them, then I think there should be an algorithm that tracks the speed with which the click knob is turned and then interpolates the steps that are not being ‘sent’ by the rotary encoder.

This problem goes beyond the typical “steppiness” of digital filters/pitch bend/etc that many of us are resigned to endure in modern keyboards. This unpredictable jumping between values is totally “unmusical” for many of us who are eager to make music! Maybe some players like the ‘glitchy’ aspect of how these knobs respond. I, for one, do not.

Front panel filter tweaking, etc is part of modern electronic music. We shouldn’t have to buy an external MIDI controller to adjust the parameters smoothly.

And in closing let me add I really like almost everything else about the MOXF but this problem. (And the pinkish end panels!)

DavePolich - 25 November 2013 02:31 PM

Let me clarify something. 5pin din, I should have said, yes I can hear
stepping when the MO XF is hooked up as you suggested. But is it ACTUALLY
“stepping”? No.

I’ve never heard any audible “stepping” of the MO XF filter, ever, under
any circumstances.[...]

Thanks for the clarification, although frankly it would have been more helpful if you had initially provided such detail.

I wonder why Yamaha chose to use detented controls on the MOXF…

pkadidlo - 25 November 2013 02:54 PM

If the MOX/XF rotary encoder knobs don’t have a 1:1 correlation between each ‘click’ and a single increment/decrement of the sent/displayed value that is modifying the parameter assigned to them, then I think there should be an algorithm that tracks the speed with which the click knob is turned and then interpolates the steps that are not being ‘sent’ by the rotary encoder. [...]

Do you know for sure that the MOXF uses rotary encoders? The XS and XF don’t - the eight rotary controls are potentiometers, and the position is read using A/D conversion. Only the Data Dial is a rotary encoder on the XS and XF.

pkadidlo - 25 November 2013 02:54 PM

MeMyselfAndI64 - 25 November 2013 01:26 PM

DavePolich - 25 November 2013 01:10 PM

The “stepping” you speak of is the MO XF knobs “stepping”. Unlike the Motif XF which has smooth rotary knobs, the knobs on the MO XF move
in “clicked” increments. You should be able to feel that simply by
moving them.

yeah i noticed that when I tested it with MIDI-OX! The clicking increment makes it feel like it,s stepping more than it,s really does....

I don`t know what the issue is...so the MOFX filter are stepping when doing it manually. If you are an nob twister there is other alternatives out there....

Comparing the Motif with MOFX well I think we can do it for days without getting anywhere...Opinions are always divided!

Lets make music instead:)

If the MOX/XF rotary encoder knobs don’t have a 1:1 correlation between each ‘click’ and a single increment/decrement of the sent/displayed value that is modifying the parameter assigned to them, then I think there should be an algorithm that tracks the speed with which the click knob is turned and then interpolates the steps that are not being ‘sent’ by the rotary encoder.

This problem goes beyond the typical “steppiness” of digital filters/pitch bend/etc that many of us are resigned to endure in modern keyboards. This unpredictable jumping between values is totally “unmusical” for many of us who are eager to make music! Maybe some players like the ‘glitchy’ aspect of how these knobs respond. I, for one, do not.

Front panel filter tweaking, etc is part of modern electronic music. We shouldn’t have to buy an external MIDI controller to adjust the parameters smoothly.

And in closing let me add I really like almost everything else about the MOXF but this problem. (And the pinkish end panels!)

My point was that not everybody change filter settings when playing, I load a sound,
I set it,I play...If I need to change any filter settings while playing, I assign it to the MOD wheel.

5pinDIN - 25 November 2013 03:07 PM

DavePolich - 25 November 2013 02:31 PM

Let me clarify something. 5pin din, I should have said, yes I can hear
stepping when the MO XF is hooked up as you suggested. But is it ACTUALLY
“stepping”? No.

I’ve never heard any audible “stepping” of the MO XF filter, ever, under
any circumstances.[...]

Thanks for the clarification, although frankly it would have been more helpful if you had initially provided such detail.

I wonder why Yamaha chose to use detented controls on the MOXF…

Perhaps. But at any rate, the MO XF is what it is. If something about it
is a deal killer for someone, then they just shouldn’t purchase it.
For me, the “stepping” is absolutely a non-issue.

This will be my last reply on this particular thread, so everybody and
anybody else, feel free to rant/complain/lament/whatever. Gotta move on…

Two keyboards. Done deal. I have had occasion to appreciate the stepping. Sure beats bringing out an old treasured synth for a couple of tunes.