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Viewing topic "The friendship of allies"

   
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Posted on: February 04, 2009 @ 07:52 AM
hamletmaschine
Total Posts:  996
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I don’t know if this story is being aired in the US but it’s top of the news in the UK this evening.

Our loyal allies the US have decided to end sharing anti-terrorist intelligence if the British high court demands secret files that will reveal evidence of torture. A fuller version is here: [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/04/guantanamo-torture]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/04/guantanamo-torture [/url].

So, the values of truth and justice are once more sacrificed in the cause of saving face. The US sanction couldn’t be more powerful and the Pentagon, of course, knows this. So, we join and support the US in two highly contentious wars and when our independent judiciary demands evidence, it’s threatened by its so-called ally in whose coalition hundreds of soldiers have died. What’s more, the refusal to share intelligence opens up danger on so many fronts, in the field and at home. I can but hope that Obama overrules the shame-faced torture apologists and truly ushers in an era of openness and fair treatment to all.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 04, 2009 @ 08:14 AM
MoGut
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Re: The friendship of allies

He was caught building dirty bombs!!!

He was running all over Afganistan and pakistan with forged passports!!!!

The UK claimed he had Al-Qaeda training!!!!

Quit being a sympathizer ham!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 04, 2009 @ 08:23 AM
scotch
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Re: The friendship of allies

Mohamed was not convicted of any crime, and if he had been that would have been no excuse for torture. Quit being a fascist, Gutwrench.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 04, 2009 @ 08:43 AM
MoGut
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Re: The friendship of allies

He lived in the UK for seven years, during which he converted to Islam and attempted to conquer his addiction to drugs. He travelled to Afghanistan during the summer of 2001 (coincidence), where he is alleged to have received firearms and street-fighting training and studied explosives alongside Richard Reid, the shoe-bomber. He is accused of attempting to travel to the US, where he was to have blown up apartment blocks by renting several flats, sealing the doors and windows, turning on the ovens and then setting timer devices to ignite the gas. Mohammed was arrested at Karachi airport as he tried to board a flight to London with a forged passport.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 04, 2009 @ 08:46 AM
scotch
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Re: The friendship of allies

Read my lips: “Mohamed was not convicted of any crime, and if he had been that would have been no excuse for torture.”

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 04, 2009 @ 08:51 AM
MoGut
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Re: The friendship of allies

no excuse for torture.

Thats your opinion.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 04, 2009 @ 10:14 AM
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Re: The friendship of allies

Yes indeed.....We languish in our post-modern humanist societies where man and his glorious achievements answer to no-one; where no external moral authority has any say for or against our behavior.

How can we condone torture...are we barbarians?  How could we judge ourselves under such harsh light...NEVER!

After all, we are the society that just voted in the wonderful moral authority and righteousness of the Democrats.  Among their beliefs, and most liberals’, is the idea that we are blameless in murdering 4,000 innocent human unborn children per day.

Torture? No Way Baby!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 04, 2009 @ 05:30 PM
scotch
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Re: The friendship of allies

[hamletmaschine] I can but hope that Obama overrules the shame-faced torture apologists and truly ushers in an era of openness and fair treatment to all.

From the New York Times:
______________________________________________
The court said the paragraphs summarize reports by the United States to Britainís intelligence services about the treatment of Mr. Mohamed. It said it had removed the text at the request of the British Foreign Office, which was responding to a ďthreatĒ from the Bush administration [my emphasis].

The court said the Bush administration had made the threat in a letter to the Foreign Office last September [my emphasis]. It called on the Obama administration to reverse that position.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 04, 2009 @ 07:42 PM
hamletmaschine
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Re: The friendship of allies

Yes indeed.....We languish in our post-modern humanist societies where man and his glorious achievements answer to no-one; where no external moral authority has any say for or against our behavior.

This is a curious response, Q. My very point is that it is immoral and unacceptable to torture people. If that’s not asking a govt to answer then I don’t know what is.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 05, 2009 @ 01:52 AM
MoGut
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Re: The friendship of allies

Self-righteous leftists protected by their betters.

heh…

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 05, 2009 @ 02:34 AM
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Re: The friendship of allies

In reply to:

This is a curious response, Q. My very point is that it is immoral and unacceptable to torture people. If that’s not asking a govt to answer then I don’t know what is.


I was merely contrasting one unacceptable “wrong” with another much more unacceptable “wrong”.  That man would focus on only one of these while the other continues unabated indicates a flaw, at least to me, in mans’ nature.  A flaw that the humanist hypocritically sets aside and, what’s worse, justifies.  He can do this efficiently and with no bad conscience because he answers to no external moral authority.....himself being the final moral authority.

My point being that the govt. is an extension of man....not an external moral authority.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 06, 2009 @ 06:18 AM
hamletmaschine
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Re: The friendship of allies

By ‘external moral authority’, I assume you mean God. Terrorists also have an ‘external moral authority’, being fundamentalists and all that, so it’s hardly a guarantee of anything…

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 06, 2009 @ 06:43 AM
hamletmaschine
Total Posts:  996
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status: Guru

Re: The friendship of allies

Self-righteous leftists protected by their betters.

I seemed to have missed this one. I can’t say I understand this post either: yes, we’re the leftists, I get that part, but ‘protected by their betters’? Who are the betters? The security services involved in torture? I don’t quite see how that makes them our ‘betters’. Come on, Gut, stop being so cryptic!

Also: what I don’t get in this whole thread are the grounds on which posters are defending torture. Torture, in case you haven’t noticed, is outlawed by the UN and two Geneva conventions. Your and my country are both signatories. There’s a reason for that. I was under the impression that ‘our’ moral superiority to terrorists was based on our adherence to the rule of law, after all, terrorists take the law into their own hands and cause atrocities. Two wrongs don’t make a right, unless you think developed countries have a special dispensation in such issues. Our systems are subject to due process; if they become perverted through torture, rendition or whatever euphemism that’s currently en vogue, then they become little better than those that justify terrorism.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 06, 2009 @ 07:30 AM
MoGut
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Re: The friendship of allies

I can’t say I understand this post either: yes, we’re the leftists, I get that part, but ‘protected by their betters’? Who are the betters?

The attitude of “donít be cruel” in the heat of battle or war I guess is what its referring to. Hippie mentality I suppose. Its easy to sit back in the comfort of a warfree area and cast judgement. Just remember, our countries are the good guys.

Law is not preventative. The word “protect” is used incorrectly, especially in the states. How is the world being protected if the bad guys are given so many leniencies?

Orenthal James Simpson, ring a bell? Hereís a real gem, this guy acquitted of killing his wife and her boyfriend, even though there was mountains of evidence to prove he committed this crime. A little bit later on down the road, sure enough, was found guilty of armed robbery. There are COUNTLESS stories of acquitted criminals with same ending (Iím sure thereís a statistic)

Pedophiles and murders should be tortured. A job I would thoroughly enjoy for myself. One day my dream might come true.

Letís face it; if this guy wasnít getting his balls poked that one night, he would no doubt be wreaking havoc in the streets of our cities, killing by the 100’s for sure. After all he’s such a sweetheart. Glad we didnt find out the hard way.

Just my opinion

Sleep tight all....

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 06, 2009 @ 07:49 AM
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Re: The friendship of allies

In reply to:

“By ‘external moral authority’, I assume you mean God. Terrorists also have an ‘external moral authority’, being fundamentalists and all that, so it’s hardly a guarantee of anything… “


No, they do not have an “external moral authority”, you are mistaken.

Allah simply demands performance from his “believers”.  He offers nothing from himself.....no grace, no love, no indwelling spirtual and living relationship......he only demands human performance.  He does offer carnal rewards for performance that is up to standard, but again this is transparently absurd and is spiritually moot because the offer only concerns itself with mans’ desires.

The man made concept of Allah is simply an extension of the humanist view that leaves the attempts at upright morality in the hands of men...this, in the end, is futile.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 06, 2009 @ 08:02 AM
hamletmaschine
Total Posts:  996
Joined  02-21-2004
status: Guru

Re: The friendship of allies

Allah is as supernatural to Moslems as Jehovah/Jahweh is to Christians. I can’t see how you can hive off your god as supernatural and deny another faith its own spiritual claims. It’s not a question of what they give anyone, it’s that their existence is predicated on faith and not proof. That’s what gives them both their power.

To atheists they are both creations of human imagination and thus no legitimation for the various crimes, historical and contemporary, that are carried out in their unimpeachable names.

  [ Ignore ]  


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