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Viewing topic "Use Total XA, from the Motif XS, to get A+ Voices."

Posted on: January 21, 2009 @ 05:09 PM
Total Posts:  0
Joined  04-19-2004
status: Newcomer

Sounds good Dave, thanks for keeping us up on the coming 2009 sounds.

I will be very interested in more solo type sounds, lead sounds that could utilize the total architecture that the XS Expanded Articulations has to offer.
I did enjoy the samples that was in the free down loaded sets, but it seemed to be only a very small amount that utilized the totality of the Expanded Articulations and multi pad, key off, and key on type of stuff that make the texture just as vibrant as the T-2 type sounds are.
One poster ( Motif8mine ) had mentioned that lots of the AF-1 and AF-2 that was displayed on the name of lots of the voices, when pressed didn’t make any differences in the sound elements...I would agree with this poster.
Bad Mister later replied by saying that some of the sounds utilizes the Performance mode in order to get the AF assignments to operate. ‘’Copy & Paste this full link’’ [url=] [/url],2,4&Board=MotifXS&Number=435487&page=6&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

The poster was not interested in Performances mode but explained that he utilizes Pattern or Song mode, that indicated that the programs control of the AF-1 AF-2 buttons needed to be implemented in Voice mode, and would hopefully allow the assign control voices to also fallow the voice when used in pattern or song mode.

I can hear good waves in the XS where if assigned to the proper controlling elements with the correct FX and LFO’s filter cut on and off multi waves with 8 elements utilized properly would give us sounds that I believe could ser pass any other keyboard on the market including lots of the T-2 sounds.

I would like to hear lead sounds like expressive lead saxophones, trombones, trumpets. flugelhorn, flutes, harmonicas, lead strings, lead orchestra sounds like tubas, harps, any sound that could display it’s character with expressive shape’s and aperture from ( AX ) as well.

Dave you as well as Peter Krischker have done this with some XS solo sound, using no additional waves Axxe, Pulse & Stage & Studio just to name a few.
Sounds like ‘’Spanish Nylon, Nylon Pad, Finger Picking, Steel Strings, Tenor Dynamic, Tenor Growl AF-affects are good.
Other sounds with AF displayed voices such as Soprano Soft AF1, Clarinet 1 AF1, Oboe 1 AF1, Bassoon 1 AF 1, and some others have no expression when AF-1 AF-2 is pressed at all.
Why couldn’t it give wind blowing assign to a AF, Ribbon or mod wheel controller or somthing ....we just need more good life like programmed leads.
Forget about the T-2 sounds I’ve heard some better sounds on the XS.  I have done some of the programing assignments myself but find that it’s very time consuming for me.

For the years that the Expanded Articulation ( AX ) has been used by you programmers, I know that you, the sound designers have a better understanding of the totality of what the ( AX ) can do.

Please for 2009 I believe that we all should be buying more sounds from Keyfax for the Motif XS using lifelike expressions like AX to the fullest, and less looking for other outside options to fill a void.

Give us sounds with more Expanded Articulation expression and show us what this technology in the MOTIF XS can really do
That’s my opinion, what’s yours?

In the immortal words of James Brown who produced Lyn Collins ( We got to use what we got, to get what we want ) ‘’ You’d Better Think’’ [url=] [/url] By the way, one of the most sampled break beats of all time.  Thank you for reading.  /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif alt=

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: January 24, 2009 @ 03:21 AM
Total Posts:  6820
Joined  07-27-2002
status: Guru

Re: Use Total XA, from the Motif XS, to get A+ Voices.

Thanks for your opinions.

I would like to point out that the XA system doesn’t necessarily
lend itself to more realistic expression on acoustic instruments such as brass, reed, and pipe instruments. Velocity to filter EG, pitch EG, and
amp EG is where the action is for those instruments. Also, velocity switched or crossfaded elements can help to add realism.

The biggest factor in determining realisim in a brass, reed, or
pipe instrument is the person playing. A thorough knowledge of
instrument behavior is needed for realistic parts. For example,
real brass and reed players can’t sustain notes forever, like an organ,
and their pitch fluctuates throughout the duration of the note, because
they are human beings and cannot sustain a ruler-flat perfectly pitched note. Even if they could, the mechanics of a brass or reed or pipe instrument determine that pitch will vary over the duration of the note due to what is happening with the airflow through the length
of the tube through which it is passing. Long story short, most keyboard players simply hold a brass or flute note way too long, which is a dead giveaway that the instrument isn’t “real”.

The pitch bend wheel and expression (volume) pedal are your friends. Trumpet shakes are entirely possible with pitch bend and a volume pedal. That’s all a shake really is - a complex pitch modulation. Sampled shakes are fun and people love them, but a problem with sampled shakes is that they are at one tempo and
cannot match the tempo of every song. Also if you listen to a trumpet player doing shakes, the shakes themselves vary in intensity and speed.

Listen closely to real acoustic instrument players - REAL closely, every day, for at least an hour or more. Really zero in on what they’re doing. You’ll see that almost all of it is possible using the
physical controllers such as pitch bend, mod wheel, and volume
pedal. For “blown” instruments, a breath controller is really the
best controller, since it is based on your ability to blow into it and hold a note.

There will be more libraries coming, but as far as DCP libraries go, there are no plans to do any more acoustic instrument libraries that
do not use new samples.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: January 29, 2009 @ 08:59 PM
Total Posts:  0
Joined  07-13-2004
status: Newcomer

Re: Use Total XA, from the Motif XS, to get A+ Voices.

2Reggie : Response To Dave and all sound programmers for the Motif XS.

Thank you very much for your response Dave.
I wouldn’t want to challenge you in what’s could or couldn’t work in terms of using samples in your next acoustic sounds, by all means, do what you need to do in order to get the best voices passable for the Motif XS, that’s totally the prerogative of you and the voice developers.

As for me, I also set some conditions as to what I will not buy.
I must say my 512 X 2 = 1 GB Dimms was purchased shortly after I got the Motif XS 2007.
As for me and many other posters, unless the samples are extraordinary like a Omnisphere or similar.
Loading waves with voices become much more user friendly into the Motif XS, which is now, very cumbersome and inconvenient. 
Choosing and building something like a best voice sound banks using additional waves outside of the Motif XS, would require lots of additional loading time, even with an editor XOE when the wave must be directed to it’s voice location, XOA or XOW all files with waves extending when using RAM is inconvenient, takes up valuable loading time and things of that sort, unless it becomes more convenient, I will not buy it.

The case that I was hoping to make is that the waves (ROM) that’s in the Motif XS are very good and sufficient for the voices that you and Peter Krischker made without using additional time consuming wave loading whenever you fire up the Motif XS.

In being a saxophonist myself ( for many years) I believe that very good samples that is utilizing pressure for grow like ( Velo Grow Legato ) and then ( Tenor Growl AF-1 ) that uses the AF-1 for the growl and AF-2 for button for a softer blowing with a belayed vibrato and more air when low notes are pressed lightly from C# 2 on down, higher notes produces an tighter mouth armature effect.....nice.
Then you have others that is displayed and assigned AF-1 & AF-2 that when depressed doesn’t do anything in voice mode...Wow what a wast.

Concerning your statement above about horns holding notes / ( Circular Breathing from a pro can be consistent on a saxophone )

I know that velocity, EG and Filter type and resonance with ( XA ) wave cycle or random control to desired AF-1 AF-2 off or on elements could enhance realness in some reeds as well like in the case of the above examples.

Dave on another punn intended, what about working outside the box with woodwinds and brass instruments.

Have your ever thought about FX brass / woodwind programming. A Classic experimenter jazz extraordinaire like [url=] [/url] Rahsaan Roland Kirk on Night Music
I always liked the sound of playing the saxophone through a box called a Mutron made famous by the Brecker Brothers, Stevie Wonder, Stanly Clark and countless others.  [url=] [/url]

It produced a bubble like electronic sound on the Brecker Brothers horns....very funky indeed listend to these links...if you can’t click on it, copy it and past it in your browser then enter. 

[url=] [/url] Mike FX Sax Funky Sea Funky Do Part 1

[url=] [/url] Mike FX Sax Funky Sea Funky Do Part 2

[url=] [/url] Randy on FX trumpit

[url=] [/url] I thought this was Bad Mister on keys but it was only Gorge Duke...Lol

How about a flute with a double high low percussive octave tones. A box called the Maestro G-1 was used for that and many other FX for Brass and Woodwind instruments back in the day.
[url=] [/url] Chicago Theme 1975 Hubert Laws Flute FX listen to his solo.

[url=] [/url] Vintage MAESTRO Analog Audio Processsors stuff....Hard to find one.

[url=] [/url] Hubert Laws Flute FX with Quincy Jones “Walking In Space” (1969)

[url=] [/url] Flute Guitar watch AL DiMeola solo.. Awesome

To all of the Motif sound designers, I believe you get my point, we already have hundreds of piano sounds...not saying that we couldn’t use more.
I think that we all are looking for something unique and different that’s also has ( convenient easy access wave availability ) so please....start thinking outside the box I’m sure that someone eventually will.

Below is just some nice throw ins...I get carried away.

[url=] [/url] Al di Meola Larry Coryell - Spain Watch the trade of at the end....Wow.
[url=] [/url] This synth solo is wicked.

[url=] [/url] Take your dogs out of the room when this amazing trumpet video gets to 248...Wow.

Thanks for reading: that’s my opinion, what’s yours?

Peace & blessings.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: January 30, 2009 @ 03:48 AM
Total Posts:  6820
Joined  07-27-2002
status: Guru

Re: Use Total XA, from the Motif XS, to get A+ Voices.

Well it sounds like you might have enough programming ideas of your
own. Perhaps you can try some of them yourself - that’s what experimentation is for.

In producing the “Orchestral Strings”, “Brass”, and “Complete Orchestra” libraries for the XS, I did take advantage of the XS’ architecture and those libraries
do employ some of the methods you have listed. However,
after literally months of working on those libraries, I
stand by my statement that almost all articulations are best realized by the person doing the playing and MIDI programming. “Automatic” envelope and filter and modulation behaviors don’t go far enough, no matter how clever you try
to be. You, the player, has the responsibility for animating
your “instrument”. Furthermore, all the behaviors that go
on with a particular reed or brass instrument cannot possibly be created in real-time by a keyboard player. You
have to go back after you record your MIDI data and add things as “overdubbed” data - extra pitch bend movements, filter cutoff manipulations, eliminating note overlaps, connecting note ends and the following note beginnings,etc.

Wave cycle or random wave XA won’t address what you’re asking
for, though. But nevertheless, I should point out - I did not program
any of the orchestral acoustic voices in the original XS factory set.
Neither did Peter. We were in a “different room”. Peter and I were
part of the “not normal” team - in other words, synth and fx sounds, basically.

“Orchestr’ale” and “Artikulation” already provide new acoustic instrument voices based on the existing ROM. I believe they have
covered that ground. So no, I don’t intend to go “outside the box” and program any more acoustic instrument sounds that are not based on new samples. Maybe someone else will do that.

I do think that what you have in mind is being realized now, not in
any workstation or even most software sample libraries, but by
a small but growing number of developers who are creating “sample modeling” instruments. You should check out this website, this is
where the future is going:

[url=] [/url]

Instruments like this use a combination of “convolution” (algorithms based on actual sonic imprints) and “scripting”
which is complex math-based commands. Scripting involves
“intelligent” behavior based on interpolation of several
real-time factors, such as “if note a and note b are played
at “x” interval with “x"duration, the result will be “y”, unless modulated by controller “c” - etc. As you might guess, I have the Sample Modeling products, and they are wonderful. But, when you first start them up and simply play a note, they sound completely dead and weird. That’s because they are VERY controller dependent and actually take
some time to practice, just like the real instruments themselves.

The XS, along with all other workstations, does not employ either convolution or scripting.

However, I believe that all future workstations and sample library products will introduce this kind of method.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: January 30, 2009 @ 09:37 PM
Total Posts:  0
Joined  07-13-2004
status: Newcomer

Re: Use Total XA, from the Motif XS, to get A+ Voices.

Thank you Dave for taking the time to read and respond to my concerns.
I also appreciate the link that you provided, I was able to see another side of Samplmodeling that I haven’t seen in a while.
I think I may take your advice and start creating custom voices to suite my needs.
Thanks again for the information and the encouragement.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 02, 2009 @ 12:45 AM
Total Posts:  0
Joined  02-02-2009
status: Newcomer

Re: Use Total XA, from the Motif XS, to get A+ Voices.

With Regards to the Mu- Tron...that effect can easily be achieved by using either an auto filter or...setting the expression pedal to control the filter. My problem is I am brand new to the MotifES and i am having problems creating big Horns with a lot of expression like i had on my Triton. I could create 8 layers compared to only four in performance mode now. Does anybody have any ideas on where i could get one?

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: February 04, 2009 @ 07:53 PM
Total Posts:  0
Joined  07-13-2004
status: Newcomer

Re: Use Total XA, from the Motif XS, to get A+ Voices.

strawberryjam Thank you for the information.

I believe that the Mu-tron effect is a envelope controlled peak response frequency of the filter.
If you can’t find any horn section plug set over the Internet, [url=] [/url] some cheaper priced ones [url=] [/url] [url=] [/url] you could try layering brass voices and slightly detune one of the sections then store on the Motif.. 

I apologies for this link not operating on my above post.
I believe that it is worth re-posting this correct link and hope that
the motifator family will get a chance to see and hear these once in a life time classic video’s.

If you can’t just click on the link please copy and paste the entire link on to your browser and enjoy.

[url=] [/url] Rahsaan Roland Kirk on Night Music

[url=] [/url] Down Beat 1975 poll-winners’ show

[url=] [/url] Rahsaan Roland Kirk plays 3 saxes + flute at once

I would also love to have this type of original idea voices such as the flute with voice hum combined as a voice on the Motif XS.
I might just make this one myself
Peace & blessings.

  [ Ignore ]  


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