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Viewing topic "Recording arpeggios in Sonar"

     
Posted on: December 05, 2008 @ 09:31 AM
PieMan
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Hi, I’ve just bought an ES6 and I am trying to get it setup with Sonar 7. I have read and setup my system as per the sticky by Bad Mister which has helped, thanks.

I am now having a problem recording arpeggios in to Sonar, is there a way to do this?

Another problem I’m having is keeping the voices. If I change a voice in Sonar it immediatly changes it on the ES6, as it should, but after going to other tracks or when trying to record the voice changes back to piano. Am I doing something wrong?

These problems may be basic stuff to the initiated, but I must say I am having problems getting to grips with the ES6.

Thanks in anticipation of any help

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Posted on: December 06, 2008 @ 09:11 AM
Bad_Mister
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Re: Recording arpeggios in Sonar

From the Behind the Manual section of the Motif ES HOME PAGE: Recording arpeggios to Sonar

Sorry I don’t understand your other question.

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Posted on: December 10, 2008 @ 05:27 PM
T4MH
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Re: Recording arpeggios in Sonar

Clarification Questions…

I’ve tried simply recording a performance/arpeggiator into Sonar on a single track.  As you “play” the performance while recording on a single track, all that gets recorded is the keyboard events.  When you try to play this back to, in my case the XS, could be an ES, the performance/arpeggiator doesn’t sound right because all you are playing are the keyboard events.

After reading this tutorial ( haven’t tried it yet ) it looks like this is a way to actually record the arpeggiator data so that you can edit and playback the entire performance in PERFORMANCE mode.  But, will this process record the arpeggiator data as well as the keyboard events all on the same track?  Or does there have to be a separate track for events?  Also, if you “load” a performance into SONG MODE, there are 4 separate instrument tracks.  It would seem that Sonar would need 4 tracks of recorded arpeggiator data for correct playback.

Other than this, the process looks logical and do-able if you remember playback clocks and local on/off each time.

I guess I am not quite understanding how an arpeggiator/performance is constructed and HOW to command it from an external sequencer like Sonar…

Please explain…

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Posted on: December 11, 2008 @ 01:18 AM
TonyPhillips
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Re: Recording arpeggios in Sonar

T4-> If all you’re getting recorded is the Keyboard Events, then you’re either not recording the right MIDI channel, or you don’t have the MOTIF set to transmit Arpeggio Data.

It gets a bit confusing to the newly initiated…

I don’t record ARPEGGIOS from a Performance; I record them from the VOICE that’s using the Arpeggio in the Performance. 

If you’re using a sequencer, I think you’d want to play back in SONG mode, not PERFORMANCE mode?

The ARPEGGIATOR should be set to send the ARP data on a different channel than the keyboard event, so that you can record them separately from the keyboard events.


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Posted on: December 12, 2008 @ 01:45 AM
T4MH
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Re: Recording arpeggios in Sonar

Tony, thanks for your input!  Let me say this as concisely as I can because the “Behind the manual tutorial” leaves out some information, I think…

If you are in VOICE MODE and record a midi track, you can play back that track to VOICE MODE.  This works fine for one track, you can do it all day long as long as you don’t need a second track.  Once you need that second track you MUST go to either SONG or PATTERN MODE to record and playback.

If you are in PERFORMANCE MODE and want to do the same thing you cannot record one track.  All you record are the keyboard events.  You do not record any arpeggiator data.  You must be in SONG or PATTERN MODE.  But those modes “show” the performance to be on 4 tracks.  In other words, a “performance” is 4 tracks wide.  So, to record, do then need to record all 4 tracks?  Or 5 tracks ( one for events ) or 6 tracks? adding a track for arpeggiator data?

So, my question is, given you are following the “Behind the manual” tutorial, If you set the MOTIF to transmit arpeggiator data, will you record all arpeggiator data, events and 4 instruments on one track?  I don’t think so…

Lastly, if you record your performance on the MOTIF in SONG MODE and then go look at your tracks you will find there is a lot of data in all 4 tracks of your performance.  How do you record all of that data to an external sequencer along with the arpeggiator data so that you can edit the whole thing more easily?  The tutorial ONLY covers recording ARP data.

I hope this is a little more clear…

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Posted on: December 15, 2008 @ 05:36 AM
TonyPhillips
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Re: Recording arpeggios in Sonar

So, my question is, given you are following the “Behind the manual” tutorial, If you set the MOTIF to transmit arpeggiator data, will you record all arpeggiator data, events and 4 instruments on one track? I don’t think so…

ABSOLUTELY you will.  But, you need to know that A PERFORMANCE is NOT 4 channels.  It’s four PARTS, all of which are in the same channel.  You cannot record the different “Parts” onto separate tracks in Cakewalk.  They’ll all record onto the same (or multiple) tracks simultaneously, because it’s only ONE CONTROLLER that’s running the whole show.

If you’re wanting then to play back a PERFORMANCE that was recorded into Cakewalk and expect it to sound the same, you can only play it back in PERFORMANCE mode.  Not Song Mode.  I don’t think you can patch a PERFORMANCE into a PART of a SONG.

If you’re trying to record an ARP that you’re hearing within a PERFORMANCE, you’re gonna be stuck.  PERFORMANCE ARPs can’t be isolated and recorded.

(Well, they can, but you have to do it by manually setting up a VOICE with the identical parameters to the PART within the PERFORMANCE you want to ARP.) Heck that’s a lot of words…

I’m assuming you want to record a VOICE ARP (or one that you’ve isolated as described above.)

To record an ARP:

Create a SONG
Put the ARPEGGIATOR on the channel with the Keyboard controlling it
Set the ARPEGGIATOR to output onto a DIFFERENT channel. 
Set it to TRANSMIT the ARP data. 
Set Cakewalk to record THAT channel, not the KEYBOARD channel.

IE, a SONG with two PARTS.  PART1=Channel 1.  PART2=Channel 2.

Set the KEYBOARD to play into PART1. 
Set the PART1 voice to be the voice with the arpeggio you want to record. 
Set the ARPEGGIATOR to OUTPUT on CHANNEL 2.
Set CAKEWALK to RECORD CHANNEL 2 into TRACK 2.

Start Recording on Cakewalk.

Keyboard events will NOT be present on TRACK/PART 2 (They will be present on PART1, which you are not recording.)

The Arpeggiator will transmit its data on PART 2, and cakewalk will record THAT into TRACK 2.

Now, in Cakewalk, you’ve recorded all the ARPEGGIATOR events.  You can now change that track to be transmitted on PART 1. 

You can throw away the original TRACK 1 (which may or may not contain the KEYBOARD events.)

Turn the ARPEGGIATOR OFF.  If you forget to do this, it will sound like a trainwreck, because every ARP event will restart the ARPEGGIATOR as if the ARP itself was a trigger for the ARP.  ACHH!

Stay in SONG mode. 
Make sure CAKEWALK’s selected PATCH for that TRACK is correct.

PLAY back the recording.  It should sound identical to what the arpeggiator did.

Of course, all of this makes the assumption that you have the CLOCK MASTER / SLAVE relationships correct.


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Posted on: December 15, 2008 @ 12:06 PM
T4MH
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Re: Recording arpeggios in Sonar

Excellent Information!  Thanks Tony.

I’m just not sure why Yamaha made all of this so difficult… You know they gave us all these great performances/arpeggiator and tools to use and a couple of sequencers, pattern & song on the Motif.  You would think they would make it easy to access external editing tools with them… However, overall I must admit that I am extremely impressed with my XS and I cannot say that I can as yet do everything on it.  So, some of these things and the reasons for them may yet be revealed to me.

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Posted on: December 15, 2008 @ 01:22 PM
Bad_Mister
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Re: Recording arpeggios in Sonar

Yamaha made recording arpeggios extremely easy… Of course this is when you record the arpeggios to the Motif XS sequencer. It could not be easier.

You can record and entire PERFORMANCE directly to the SONG or PATTERN mode in the Motif XS sequencer.

Do this to any external sequencer is problematical… because first, Yamaha did not write Sonar, Yamaha did not write Cubase for that matter.

If you are recording to an external sequencer you must:
1) Account for Clock Synchronization
2) Transmit from the keyboard on 1 MIDI channel, yet output data for each arpeggio on a separate MIDI channel
3) Once the data is transmitted on separate MIDI channels a track must be set to record each MIDI channel discreetly
4) you then must copy the PERFORMANCE to a multi-timbral setup, reassign the MIDI channels
5) finally you must match the recorded tracks with their Voices.

This is all done by pressing the RECORD button in the Motif XS. You target SONG or PATTERN… You play. You stop.
You press SONG or PATTERN and you playback back… it could not be easier - really.
Clock? taken care of automatically
MIDI Channel transmit assignment/reception? Take care of automatically
Copy and assignment of Voices to correct data? Take care of automatically.

Now once you have recorded the data to the Motif XS sequencer it is a simply matter to export it to Sonar, or Cubase or wherever you want to use the data.  That is the easy way.

Otherwise you will need to be a MIDI Jedi Knight… because what the four arpeggios and Performance mode is doing IS VERY COMPLEX. Yamaha DID make it easy… but it is not unless you use the feature.

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Posted on: December 16, 2008 @ 01:11 AM
TonyPhillips
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Re: Recording arpeggios in Sonar

Heheh… What Yamaha did that makes it difficult (IMHO) is re-use the same words for different things, even in the same product line (ES vs. RACK ES)

A SONG on an ES is a MULTI on an RACK-ES (or a PERFORMANCE on a MO-RACK)
A ES-RACK’s PERFORMANCE is ALSO a PERFORMANCE on the MO-RACK.

A PATTERN doesn’t exist on any RACKs.

Sorry if my interpolation of terms was inappropriate.  I’m not terribly familiar with the NON-RACK ES’s..... 


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Posted on: December 18, 2008 @ 11:26 AM
Bad_Mister
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Re: Recording arpeggios in Sonar

I guess. But to call something a SONG or PATTERN when there is no sequencer would be down right silly, no?

A SONG on the ES keyboard is the same on the Motif, the MO and the Motif XS (all keyboards)
A PATTERN on the ES keyboard is the same on the Motif, the MO and the Motif XS (all keyboards.

None of the Rack Units has a sequencer so none of the Rack units have a SONG mode or a PATTERN mode.

The Keyboards have “MIXING” mode. And it is called that because of the icon of the mixer and the sliders and knobs that allow you to control the mixer… you can actually use the sliders and knobs to overdub changes to your sequence… you can literally use them to MIX.

I think you meant to say that “MIXING” and “MULTI” are the words, respectively, used for the keyboard (MIXING) and the rack units (MULTI).

The rack units have a MULTI… because you are, typically, using it as a simple passive Multi-timbral engine.

And if you understand that a “PERFORMANCE” is the same as a MULTI except that you are addressing four sounds on a single MIDI channel, you get where a PERFORMANCE and a MULTI are only different because the first four sounds are set to MIDI channel 1. Not that difficult really.

Performances make sense on the keyboard version because you can interact with them by playing them all simultaneously on the keyboard. The majority of folks who buy a rack unit are using it in MULTI mode for multi-timbral sequencing on multiple MIDI channels ... It is just that the keyboard version’s Performances have become so very popular that those who did not buy the keyboard wanted to play some of the same layered sounds (simultaneously) that they heard from the keyboard versions.

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Posted on: December 23, 2008 @ 03:33 AM
T4MH
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Re: Recording arpeggios in Sonar

So if I have my ARP or performance recorded/built up as a pattern or song on the motif, then I can use a flash drive to do the file handling.  Then I simply import the .mid file into cakewalk?

Assuming the file handling is not to bad ( never done it ) this could indeed be the easiest method or work around.

Here is the question.  Do I need to delete the events/data in the motif song or pattern before playing the sequence from cakewalk?  Or will two sequencers playing the same data work?  I’m guessing one or both will lock up.  I’ve had some problems with the motif locking while playing a song ON the motif.  For this reason I like to have the instruments assigned in song mode with no data and then have all data/events played from cakewalk.  I’m guessing this problem has probably had something to do with internal/external clock/sync settings.  I haven’t really worried about it but I guess I will need to troubleshoot.

Explanation:  Look guys, I realize the Yamaha has created a really great set of keyboards with the motif line and that they want you to use it for everything.  Makes business sense for them.  They have designed and built what they think and intend to be a standalone machine.  I love to pull up a performance and just jam on this thing.  However, I have comm with various other synths/drum machines and a really excellent harddisk recorder that I capture and master all audio from all these synths as well as other instruments that I play.  It receives MTC/SMPTE time code and runs in sync with the motif and cakewalk.  I use cakewalk as a master to generate timecode for everything.  If you work with video and you don’t have sync then you have a nightmare.  I don’t think this process is any or much different from a lot of other professionals and I am not reinventing the wheel.  When you record a song or a pattern on the motif I’m thinking that you have to have the motif set to internal clock which means it is out of sync with everything else… It would have been MUCH easier if Yamaha had allowed you to record a performance ( all events and arpeggiator data ) to an external sequencer by simply recording into an external sequencer and playing the keyboard while transmitting the data!

You can say that the hardisk recorder and cakewalk can sync up and you then just play the performance on the motif while recording the audio.  This works and I have done it, but, if you make a boo boo playing, it is much more difficult to fix in audio ( punch in punch out ) than if you edit it in cakewalk.  This is the reason I try to do all of these weird things and ask all of these questions…

The easiest way would have been to play a performance into cakewalk similar to recording voice events, edit that, then push play in cakewalk ( syncing harddisk in record ) and have the motif play/repeat what you just played.  Automation.  IMO Yamaha needs to realize the motif, while being a tremendous tool, is a part of a system and everything that the motif can do should be optimized for that operating within a system.

I truly appreciate you guys taking the time to explain and listen to someone like me that has task specific problems.  I can be the midi jedi knight as is needed.  While I will say that I don’t know everything, I have been communicating with midi for many years.  However, I would really rather concentrate on being an artist!

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Posted on: December 23, 2008 @ 12:33 PM
T4MH
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Re: Recording arpeggios in Sonar

You know what?  I just answered my own question!  The keyboard needs to be the master!  Duh…

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Posted on: December 29, 2008 @ 04:07 AM
T4MH
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Re: Recording arpeggios in Sonar

I took Bad Mister’s advice and tried pattern recording.  This is really easy!  First, I followed along with the “World of Motif” DVD Arppegiator/Pattern example with “Double Dip the Funk” and building the same pattern on my machine step by step. Next I was able to create my own pattern.  I also reloaded all of the example patterns/songs and had a close look at them.

Is it possible to have 2 performances/arppegiators within one pattern?  Like if a song goes along with the 1st arp and changes in the middle to the 2nd arp then back again.  Or would it be easier to build 2 patterns and then load them into song mode in the proper order?

Once again, I extremely impressed with this keyboard!  Yamaha has provided an important tool.  I’m learning…

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