I am running Vista & Sonar 8 Producer with my MOTIF XS-8 mainly because I find that editing events and such is much easier than doing so with the MOTIF screen.  Setting up a song is fairly easy with this system.  One just sets up channels in Sonar that correspond to channels in the MOTIF SONG MODE with patches selected on respective channels.  Push PLAY or RECORD in Sonar.  This works really good except that I find in SONG MODE a bunch of controllers ( the MOTIF knobs and sliders )are lost that are available in VOICE MODE for each patch making each patch sound a bit different.  I probably could go into Sonar and manually setup all of the controllers but this seems exceedingly tedious…

Question1) Can I record the controllers using this setup at the same time I record events?  If so how, because it doesn’t seem to want to allow this once in SONG MODE.
Question2) Can I use Studioware with Sonar to capture these controllers?  I have looked at the Studioware posts for setup with the MOTIF ES.  I am guessing it will be mostly the same with Vista?

Re: Sonar 8 & Studioware

Problem Update

I did get my Studio Manager running in stand alone mode per the instructions for the ES machines.  Vista and XS made it a little different but not too bad. Studio Manager now runs minimized but online with the XS-8. However, this has not fixed my problem.  In VOICE MODE a patch I bring up sounds great.  This can be done from either PRESET or USER banks.  When I load it into a track in SONG MODE, it looses much of its Umpf.  As an example:

The tone wheel organ preset PRE 1:094(F14) Crunchy AS2 sounds great in VOICE MODE.  When I assign it a track in SONG MODE it looses its “crunchy-ness” and becomes mostly just another organ…

This is happening to all of my patches and so I suspect there is some global setting that I am missing.

Re: Sonar 8 & Studioware

Man- I had to request forgotten password and sign in for you to answer your post. Can’t believe no one answered it- where is everyone?

Your sounds sound different in Song mode because they missing effects. There is a little box you need to check that says something like “copy sounds with effect"- I don’t use Song mode, so can not tell you exactly the step by step, but there is a way to make it copy effects and settings from Voice.

You can record CC controllers by simple knobs movement in real time. The sliders will not respond. Do you have local ON on motif? Try to experiment with it.

Re: Sonar 8 & Studioware

The Voice in question PRE 1:094(F14) Crunchy AS2 has these two Insertion Effects active:
INSERTION A = AMP SIMULATOR 2
INSERTION B = Rotary Speaker

In order to make these active in a multi-timbral setting like SONG MIXING or PATTERN MIXING mode you must do the following:

From the main SONG or PATTERN screen
Press [MIXING]
You get a view of the Mixer
Find the row labeled “INS FX SW” Insertion Effect Switch and make sure a red check mark appears on the channel with the Organ sound.

Only 8 PARTS can have the red check active so you will have to decide which Parts are those that require their Insertion Effects from Voice mode.

Press [STORE] to update your Sequence and Mix settings.

Re: Sonar 8 & Studioware

Ok Bad Mister!  I thought I was out of memory and about to crash my XS… I knew someone would know the keystrokes.

Now the $64k question or the 16 track question…

If say you had a song with two different organ patches at different places. Or it could be two very dissimilar patches on the same track. Is it possible to have the events for both tracks on one track and perform program changes thereby getting the equivalent of 16 tracks with the cool effects?  Will the effects follow the program change?

I’m guessing that Yamaha did this in order to accomidate a couple of 4 track performances.

However, it seems to me that if you were trying to create something really orchestral with lots of tracks this 8 track thing could be a real problem.  I guess I should look into a XS Rack…

Re: Sonar 8 & Studioware

If say you had a song with two different organ patches at different places. Or it could be two very dissimilar patches on the same track. Is it possible to have the events for both tracks on one track and perform program changes thereby getting the equivalent of 16 tracks with the cool effects? Will the effects follow the program change?

The wording of your question gives me problems but yes, you can insert a Program Change on any MIDI track, and the Dual Insertion Effects if active for that track will follow the VOICE. The Insertion Effects are technically part of the Voice. Once the red check mark is in place for a track, another other sound activated on that track will come in with its Dual Insertion Effects in tact.

I’m guessing that Yamaha did this in order to accomidate a couple of 4 track performances.

No. Not at all. A Mixing setup is so you can have up 16 different musical instrument parts happening simultaneously under control of 16 tracks. A Performance’s purpose is quite different. It was not the intention, at all, to have multiple Performances simultaneously, nothing could be farther from the intention.

A Performance is so that a single player can perform multiple sounds at the same time. A Performance could simply be a SPLIT of two Voices (Piano and Bass) or it could a simple LAYER (Piano and Strings) or it could an elaborite Performance with Drum (arpeggio), Bass (arpeggio), Guitar (arpeggio) and Clavinet… where the performer can control the entire rhythm section. At no time is it musically normal to have multiple rhythm sections going simultaneously… Although you might find some bands with two drummers, it is a rare occassion and not the normal situation. So multiple Performances was not the intention at all. Sure, I guess you could, but I think you can reasonably conclude that this was not the intention.

However, it seems to me that if you were trying to create something really orchestral with lots of tracks this 8 track thing could be a real problem. I guess I should look into a XS Rack…

It would be easy for me to just say, yes, get a Rack XS, But that would not be the right thing to do just yet. What do you mean by “really orchestral”. You have to think about what you want to accomplish. Until you discover what you can do with those System Effects - you really should resist buying more gear.

For example, in order to get a bigger richer string sound, the easy (simple) solution would be to layer another sound (not in reality, if real players were involved and you had to pay them real money, I bet this would not be your first solution). This is not only expensive from a dollar standpoint but from a polyphony standpoint. You can double the string section size with artful use of a DELAY algorithm. That’s right, if you know how to use the effect processing, SYSTEM EFFECTS, you can effectively (pun intended) double the size of your orchestral strings without using not one extra note of polyphony, without using an additional part or track, and certainly without buying additional gear.

In a MIXING setup, a maximum of 8 PARTS can recall their Dual Insertion Effects from Voice mode, that does not mean anything beyond that statement. Not all Voices have critical Insertion Effects. Remember, each Mixing setup has two System Effects… more than enough processing for most of your “orchestra"… The Insertion Effects are those that give some Voices their personality… and are inserted “in-line” on that particular sound; for example, a Guitar with distortion and wah-wah, or an organ with its own Rotary Speaker and Amp Simulator, but the Violin players did not bring stomp boxes or rotating speakers to the session (mostly in the real world they do not), neither did the bass player, and the drummer - they rarely have any type of Insertion Effect. So get it out of your head that you need Dual Insertion Effects on every PART… it simply is not true.

It is not true in the real world and it is not true in the Motif XS synth Mixing setup, either.

Just as a reality check - a full orchestra has about 100 players, most of whom play a single note at a time. You have 128 notes of polyphony in today’s major synthesizer workstations… if you are going for reality you have more than enough notes to do it. Particularly if you listen to a string ensemble Voice like “Large Section"… just how many string players is that recorded on each note!?!

Many synthesized orchestral things sound so very unrealistic because:
1) either the keyboard player responsible has no concept of voicing chords for an orchestra, or
2) size of the orchestra changes to radically from chord to chord that the ear/brain senses something ‘wrong’.

For example, if you are trying to create a Brass ensemble and each note is four horns (sampled)… Playing a 6 note chord you will hear 24 horns. If you then play a 4 note chord it is like 8 guys left the section. Granted most listeners don’t listen that close, but what they do is simply (mentally) conclude those are not real horns.

My point is if you had to pay each player (as you do in the real world) you would chart your orchestra piece a bit more carefully. Just because you have a synthesizer with lots of sounds it is no excuse to abuse it. Think musically first. Try writing for a specific number of players - yes, it is the long way but I think you find it a very interesting experiment.

It extends to all kinds tracks. Ever hear those drum grooves where the drummer sounds like he has 12 limbs? - now I’m not saying that you have to base everything on reality… but there is a point where your listener unconsciously just concludes it’s a ‘fake’. A really successful MIDI drum track is one where you really have to question is it ‘live’ or is it digital… Humans can do some incredible things on drums for example, but they cannot hit more than four things at one time… If you drum track has hihat, sidestick, kick, tom and crash on the same clock tick… It simply is ‘science fiction’ at that point. Try and write for the exact instrumentation that is available - particularly if you are going for real orchestral sound.

Anyway, just some food for thought…

Re: Sonar 8 & Studioware

Very good information Bad Mister!  And a very good discussion.  I just think on the one hand that the Insertion Effects make each patch sound so much better than other synthesiers that I have worked with.  This makes me want to have the effects on every midi track I use even though I understand this is not possible.  There is however as you point out, a work-a-round.

It makes sense to learn all I can about adding my own effects to “thicken” the patches I want to use.  As far as the orchestral creation goes, most synthesizers I have used in the past seem to approach strings for instance as a “string section” or brass as a “brass section” instead of a “violn section” or a “viola section” or a “trombone section”.  They will give you the standard midi solo instruments but an orchestra is made up of sections within sections of like instruments.  But with 128 notes and effects this could be possible!

I would also note that I agree with you about the music sounding real and so I will try your experiment of writing more exactly or for an exact number of instruments.  This should be interesting.  As a rock musician, I can play all the instruments, guitar, bass, keyboards & drums so it is not difficult for me to create music that sounds real.  Some of the things I hear done on the MOTIF for guitar for an example don’t quite sound real because the keyboard player who created it has no concept how a guitar is laid out ( strings and such ) and so it doesn’t quite work.  It sounds like just what it is, a keyboard player playing guitar sounds.  I get that.  It is more of a concept that is poured into your music by “just knowing” than by anything anything else.  I also have played in orchestras and can play nearly every instrument there also.  This is why I am looking for REAL!  I believe that I can do this up to a point although there will be a learning curve.  I’m just not sure if I have the concept in my head right now of “how to” create as big of a thing as I am dreaming of.

Technical artistry!  I guess I should cut myself so slack here as I am new to the XS and have been consumed with creating music on it.  It’s pretty good right out of the box!  The investment of time in learning more about the machine should pay out dividends of creation later on…

Thanks for your input!  I’ll bet we talk again.