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Viewing topic "Why i’ve gone back to Rack ES"

     
Posted on: November 10, 2008 @ 04:03 PM
tmg1968
Total Posts:  402
Joined  11-11-2004
status: Enthusiast

recently purchased a Rack XS to “replace” my Rack ES thinking there would be a significant difference in my sound library that i have amassed since the inception of the S90. What i discovered owning the XS is that my special voices don’t sound any “better” to my ears than the ES, and actually in some cases, the identical voices are worse. Additionally, you can’t edit elements unless you hook up a PC with the supplied software. I find a synthesizer useless if it isn’t fully programmable within it’s hardware structure (it is extremely inconvenient to have to bring a PC on a gig just to tweak a sound if need be.) The effects are marginally better, but not nearly enough to make me keep the XS. The inserts are both the same at 8 in multi mode, plus i like the little mixer grid within the ES which the XS doesn’t have. I find the 5 knobs useless on the front panel of the XS, because i control all pertinent CC#s via my Kawai MP5 stage piano, not to mention those knobs are begging to be broken off by accident. I really started to miss my ES, so i dedided to sell the XS, take the loss, and re-purchase an ES Rack. I found one brand new on ebay, and i couldn’t be happier to have “my sound” back! The moral of this story is that newer isn’t always better. Know what you are buying before upgrading from you trusty “old” gear.

-Terry

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Posted on: November 10, 2008 @ 05:01 PM
moosethree
Total Posts:  11
Joined  07-18-2008
status: Regular

Re: Why i’ve gone back to Rack ES

Interesting, I have been thinking of getting an ES to compliment my XS61 for stuff with more than 16 tracks but have been holding off lest it not be “good enough”. It would also be nice to have the VL-1 and DX cards.

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Posted on: November 10, 2008 @ 05:56 PM
tmg1968
Total Posts:  0
Joined  11-20-2004
status: Newcomer

Re: Why i’ve gone back to Rack ES

XS Rack does not support PLG cards. yet another drawback of the XS.

-Terry

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Posted on: November 10, 2008 @ 06:19 PM
cfinn
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Total Posts:  143
Joined  11-15-2007
status: Pro

Re: Why i’ve gone back to Rack ES

Way to go tmg1968 !
Although I have not tried an xs
I just love my ES rack with its plg150dx/an cards
Together with some of the awesome sound libraries from the motifmart and you have one almighty rack !

Chris

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Posted on: November 11, 2008 @ 11:01 PM
billrock
Total Posts:  1037
Joined  11-14-2004
status: Guru

Re: Why i’ve gone back to Rack ES

I used to have a Motif ES keyboard. Now I bought the Motif Rack XS, and I must say the following:

1) The effects and overall sonic character is definitely improved in the XS. XS effects are killer - I have a Roland Juno-G and Korg M3, but I found the XS Rack more organic and analog sounding, not to mention ultra-realistic, thanks to VCM effects and excellent samples

2) Interface is soooo much better on the XS Rack: so many knobs, better menu and LED implementation and computer software.

3) I miss analog modeling programming from the ES. I love the PLGAN editor where you can handdraw EG curves. Not to mention the excellent DX board and VL board. This is the drawback with the XS, and I think people who keep the ES are definitely making a good decision!

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Posted on: November 13, 2008 @ 04:23 AM
nbadesign
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Total Posts:  994
Joined  08-20-2007
status: Guru

Re: Why i’ve gone back to Rack ES

Interesting post! I have ES6 filled with VL, AN and DX and I’m not intend to sell it anymore!! Also after trying XS6 in local store (keyboard has “less” feeling than ES, there is a nice post about that on ES forum). My question is it worth to buy Rack XS as additional sound engine to existing ES arsenal? What’s your opinion? Thanks!

Alex

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Posted on: November 13, 2008 @ 06:04 AM
tmg1968
Total Posts:  0
Joined  11-20-2004
status: Newcomer

Re: Why i’ve gone back to Rack ES

nbadesign,

If you feel that buying an XS rack will improve your rig, then it’s the right thing to do. For me personally, and my particular needs, the XS was no better the the ES, and like i said in my first post, i really missed not being able to program the XS in element/voice mode within the unit itself. To me that is like buying a consumer market keyboard/synth. How can anything be sold as a “synth” if it isn’t programmable from it’s own housing? I find that strange! Plus Yamaha took away the handy mixer grid in multi mode, PLG expandability, assignable outputs.The XS is a downgrade from the ES for me.

-Terry

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Posted on: November 13, 2008 @ 08:59 AM
Bad_Mister
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Total Posts:  36620
Joined  07-30-2002
status: Legend

Re: Why i’ve gone back to Rack ES

Just a point of order: The Motif-Rack XS is a convenient version of the Motif XS keyboard synthesizer. The most significant improvement over the previous Motif-Rack ES is the synth engine’s architecture: 8 Elements per Voice. (we’ll leave the new generation Effects and unprecedented four arpeggiators to another discussion)…

As technology moves unstoppably forward some things will necessarily be left behind. This is not always going to make everyone happy. But the direction that the synthesizer engine is moving now is toward more real time control over play – this tends to favors those who play and perform. The additional 4 Elements added to the architecture are not used simply to layer sounds (anyone can layer Elements) but the additional Elements are used, for the most part, to increase the responsiveness and realism of performing that sound. The goal is to increase the expressiveness of the sound in response to musical gesture. Getting more OUT for your INPUT

The 8 Elements in the piano Voice, for example, only two elements are ever sounding simultaneously (2 because it is a stereo sample). The Voice is a four-way velocity swap in the dampered strings area (A-1 through G5); above G#5 it is a three-way velocity swap; the 8th Element is the KEY-OFF sample, which only occurs when you release a key in the area of the keyboard that has felt dampers. Sure, this is all very subtle, heck, some people never even notice this… but this is typical of where the technology is going. This is not going to hit you over the head and be that obvious, but playing it certainly is a more satisfying experience. If you play piano this little subtle nuance is important and satisfying – and missed when not present.

The ‘legato’ Element is another example of using the additional Elements to increase the playability of the sounds. How you articulate a phrase will determine the selection of the sounding Element. What you see in the Motif XS is just the tip of this new “element selection” technology iceberg… Musical phrases that are played legato-style cause different multi-samples (Elements) to be selected. That is no small feat… nor is it something that you should overlook. Articulating a music phrase that includes both staccato and legato playing is now possible in a way that was not possible previously. And this is only the first step into a larger world…

These things cannot be important to everyone, immediately; that much is true. And it is quite all right to like and stay with your Motif ES or Motif-Rack ES (absolutely fine products, to be sure), particularly if that is where you are at. But to miss what is new and on offer in the XS, is simply unfortunate. Just say, you are keeping your ES because you like it. That no one can argue with.

However, many query: how could Yamaha…? or how dare Yamaha… don’t they know…? these question are very curious. Sometimes technology goes in a direction that perhaps you had not anticipated or that you may not be ready for… sometimes it goes in wrong directions – only time will tell. It is not really that ‘strange’. Yamaha is a technology leader… we thought PLGs would be a lot more popular… Some people got it, others not so much.

But having played the XS and experienced the differences that 8 Elements makes in performing a sound (XA CONTROL) it is a definite improvement, in my humble opinion. Wouldn’t it have been great if Yamaha could have kept everyone’s favorite features and then also added this new stuff? Sure, in a perfect world, all the new stuff would not cost anything to R&D… but reality is that we still have to maintain the basic (affordable) price points that the market demands.

Editing on the product itself
As to editing on the product itself and the Motif-Rack XS… the PLG boards, did not allow you to fully edit the synth engine on board from the host; in order to fully edit a PLG you needed an editor. And it is not a stretch to think that today’s musician has access to a computer. Let’s take the PLG150-AN board, a very powerful synthesis engine that was designed with the following in mind: You could access some 32 parameters in real time from the host product, assigning them to your available physical controllers… The full edit functions were only available with the AN EXPERT EDITOR.

Now, let’s examine that for a minute. What parameters do you think were available in real time? Well, those that you would or could be performed in real time via a real-time physical controller. What parameter do you think were only available from the editor? Well, those that you would not typically perform in real time. For example, selecting the source wave – it is highly unlikely to be on-stage programming from scratch. If you wanted a square wave and the Voice was using a sawtooth wave, you should consider you selected the wrong Voice in the first place. However, working the filters, changing the filter and amplitude envelopes, changing the pulse width (this allows you to morph the source wave in real time – also available was the “Edge” parameter that allowed the harmonic content of the source way to change via modulator/carrier), changing the mix between VCO1 and VCO2, etc., etc., etc,

Trust me, a lot of thought went into which parameters were available real time and which ones you would only access when offline (off stage) through the EDITOR.

Fast forward to the Motif-Rack XS. What parameters do you think are available in real time and which do you think are only accessible via the editor? If you are on-stage programming at the Element level… well, let’s just say, you probably will not be. You assign control of things you want to control in real time to your Controller Sets, and you would do this ahead of time. This way they are available to perform “live” via gestures on that particular assigned controller.

Besides, it would be absolutely ridiculous to be programming 8 Elements in a 160 x 64 dot graphic screen. Just how many times do you want to page to the right and down the list to find a parameter. While analog synthesizers have scores of parameters, the 8 Element engine of the Rack XS has literally hundreds of parameters. The new thing about programming in real time on the Motif-Rack XS (and again some thought went into it… we are fairly confident you probably never tried this if you only had the unit briefly) The front panel features a matrix of 20 real time accessible parameters via the 4 rows of 5 knobs. Again recognizing that today’s controller keyboards are lacking the kind of real time physical controllers of keyboard controllers a decade ago, you have for the first time in a Motif-series Rack unit, access to the parameter via the front panel (again the accent is on real time control… not pressing EDIT which you are not likely to be doing while on-stage). Hope that I am making my point. You do not have to change your position at all. Please, “don’t go changing…” – I just wanted to add some points about what the thinking was when the Rack XS was created.

Editing in the front panel? It is simply something that is so much better done, particularly with architecture of this size and depth, from a computer editor. The theory is the same as with the PLG150-AN board, you program your Control Sets so that your available physical controllers allow you to perform “live”. You are not going to be squinting at a tiny display while performing for thousands of people!

To say you cannot edit the Motif-Rack XS from the front panel would be an overstatement… you can certainly get at all the things you might need to tweak in an emergency – but we really do not thing anyone is programming Voices from scratch while on-stage. We don’t think anyone really wants to do so from the front panel with a screen this size.

So why not put a 320 x 240 dot graphic (color) screen like on the keyboard version? The convenient one space rack unit would quickly become 4 rack spaces and the price point would go right out the door.


...took away… assignable outputs

Au contraire, the Motif-Rack XS has more assignable outputs than any previous rack unit to date. Simply add an mLAN16E2 and you have 16 Audio Output buses. Stereo plus 14 assignable. Again this move my not be for you, but others may find it just what the Dr. ordered.

If you are referring to “analog” outputs, you have stereo plus one pair of Assignable analog 1/4” outputs. Perhaps more people are using the Rack XS in a recording environment than were using the four assignable 1/4” outputs that you find in the Motif Rack ES.  (I would wager that this is the case… strictly based on what I am hearing on the radio and on CDs); recording the XS sounds is kind of being done, a lot… it’s everywhere!

Just a point of order.

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Posted on: November 14, 2008 @ 02:06 AM
nbadesign
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Total Posts:  994
Joined  08-20-2007
status: Guru

Re: Why i’ve gone back to Rack ES

Thank’s Bad Mister for your really detail response and some clarifications! I agree that any synth producer could not put all features in instrument to satisfy everyone needs. That’s why probably someone likes Yamaha, others Korg, Roland, etc.
After your explanations I’m pretty sure that I my next upgrade will be mLAN for ES6 and Rack XS with mLAN.

Alex

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