Unfortunately my long and weary wait for MLAN to work with my Vista 64bit DAW has dragged on too long.....

Last week my family moved me into an old folks home and sold my Motif XS so they could buy a 50” TV

I guess it’s Ok, my fingers were ravaged by age and too sore to play anymore.

I’ve lived a long and happy life, but my only regret is that I never did get that 64bit AI Driver to get my MLAN up and running in my DAW.

Oh well....  ....maybe in my next life I’ll play the trumpet!

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

indeed.  Sometimes living on the bleeding edge has it’s advantages.  Such as, you get to experience the pain first, help OEM debug code errors and are first to be frustrated by an industry that evolves faster with each passing year.

btw, your family is enjoying the new TV and may come visit you in the home this Sunday.

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

Frankly, there is no real rush to go 64-bit, the majority of computer users and (by far) the majority of musicians are not ready for full 64-bit audio path… so if you were born to soon, sorry. They will probably cure old age just when you are too old to benefit ... that’s how it goes

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif alt=

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

Thanks for your reply; lol, perhaps I over-exaggerated slightly on the old folks home thing :-) I am still relatively young and my son is only 2, so I’ve got a few years left before he ships me into that home and claims my estate...lol. 

However, more and more music equipment manufacturers are alligning their products to represent the full spectrum of their user population’s OS type.  So the user gets flexibility and ‘choice’ over how they wish to integrate a specific product into their setup i.e mac/Pc/32bit/64bit etc.

I’ve invested a significant amount of money in my brand new PC DAW with both 64bit hardware and software and it’s currently powerful enough to fly to the moon.  (I understand that ‘next year’ it’ll be an antique).

Now I cannot be standing alone here?  I would just love to be able to get my MLAN working on my new DAW, the same way as it worked on my older 32bit DAW.  I absolutly love the MLAN concept and having used it extensively on my old DAW… ...it’s really hard to go back to not having MLAN.

I love my Motif XS and just want the full funtionality of MLAN on my 64bit DAW.

@Yamaha ‘Throw us 64bit users a frickin bone here!’ - Soon… ...Pretty please?

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

@ Bad Mister - Your response is, as always on this forum, respected and appreciated.

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

I’ve invested a significant amount of money in my brand new PC DAW with both 64bit hardware and software and it’s currently powerful enough to fly to the moon. (I understand that ‘next year’ it’ll be an antique).

I’m glad you can laugh about all this… some get seriously miffed when they realize that the music production stuff doesn’t keep strict pace with computer developments.

...but speaking seriously for a minute… The ‘cutting edge’ of computers is always going to be out in front of the majority of musicians and products designed for music production. So the tools that musicians use will lag somewhat behind… some times as much as years…

There used to be a large (well larger than it is now) dedicated music technology market, but the fastest growing segment is the hobbyist market. So the expensive tools of the trade remain expensive and the more these high end tools depend on computers the slower the apparent movement (this is of course, my opinion… but I do have a unique perspective, but then again I still can be very wrong about all this...).

In other words when pro recording gear was strictly based in dedicated hardware devices, there seemed to be faster movement (these hardware devices were expensive, naturally, as they required greater and greater investments in R&D and custom design). It seemed to be faster because as a user of the gear you were unaware of the insides of it, what made it work. You simply worked with the hardware when it became avialable.

Now that much stuff is dependent on computers, the development of gear has shifted (I wanted to say slowed down, but that might not be quite accurate) it has shifted to a dependency on the computer - which on its best day, has music production as a serious after thought. And when some advance in the computer (OS or speed or whatever) takes place you expect an immediate availability of gear to support that new ‘whatever’… that is what it is like now.

Remember, computers are not designed specifically to make music - if they were you would not need a million drivers to make them do basic stuff, and would have a thousand things you have to turn off to make it pay attention to fundamental things like “TIMING’.

So software designers have to get the NEW operating system and work with it to make things work and when a major change (like 32-bit to 64-bit) there must be extensive testing and often re-writing or re-compiling of code… so it is reactive… which does slow the process or at least makes it lag significantly behind.

These software companies are just a few code writers… And when you are dealing with free software or software thrown in to enhance the hardware experience, the time line slows down even more.

A few years ago Steinberg announced “VST3"… it will take several years (already has) before a significant number of soft synths start to take advantage of the protocol. VST was initially launched in 1996 in a decade it has become a household word but that took time.

Every time the computer platforms change there is a major hiccup in some of the systems. Microsoft goes from Service Pack 1 to Service pack 2 and all firewire devices start running at S100 (a bug to be sure) but havoc for every firewire device making music. Microsoft goes from Service Pack 2 to Service Pack 3 and the firewire fix for the 1 to 2 transition no longer works… You need a new hotfix… that kind of thing.

Macs are not immuned either… the Mac has never (yet) been able to exist in a network as a slave clock, yikes… There were certain of the cat series that MIDI didn’t work right… it is these kinds of hiccups that make the whole thing crazy…

The majority of music production customer do not have 64-bit systems. One component does not make you 64-bit - the entire production path has to be 64-bit to take advantage of it. Don’t believe the hype - some software companies announced 64-bit compatibility long before you actually can take advantage of the benefit.

And in this case the benefit (so far) is just in the amount of RAM you can address (as far as I know) - so again it leaves out the vast majority of the current market who, first, don’t need 4 GB of RAM and second, don’t have more that 4GB of RAM… How much noise to computers make? More RAM means more heat… More heat means you have cool that computer with a bigger fan or liquid - music studios don’t like noisy fans… Computer manufacturers will typically put a big noisy fan in there, because they are not thinking about YOU (the musician)… see how it works.

So relax, take your time. Have fun while you wait for that rocking chair… things will get there when they get there. Hopefully the computer manufacturers will allow you to work in 32-bit while you wait for music tools to catch up… But you know by the time it does the 128-bit computers will be out!!!

Keep smilin’

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

Lol… of course, you’ve made very valid points.  I do understand the overhead on Hardware manufacturers like Yamaha who are constantly chasing OS upgrades and feature packs in order to keep their angry PC/Mac mob at bay.

But my previous DAW was starting to creek and groan under the pressure of my typical projects containing large amounts of audio stems, multiple Soft FX busses, Soft Instruments and of course all of my MIDI tracks controlling my external equipment.

So, when it came time for the upgrade to my DAW; I asked myself, what should I be investing in to make sure that I’m at least a little bit ‘future proofed’?  Hence Vista 64bit OS, Copious amounts of fast Memory/disk storage, all 64bit compatible PC hardware, and 64bit DAW software supporting end-to-end 64bit audio path.

I know that maybe I’ve jumped a little ahead of the Yamaha development curve, (and of course, I can work around that to continue making my music) but I guess what I was trying to do was, raise the issue and try and get a response from Yamaha that would give me a ‘warm glow’ to reassure me that my new 64bit DAW will, at some time soon, be able to get the full funtionality from the Motif XS hardware.

Trust me… I’m not a PC Hardware hobbyist, or a trouble maker...lol My primary concern is making music not boasting about my hardware specs…

Can I ask a question?  Are you able to provide a date/month/year/guestimate of where the 64bit drivers fit into the Yamaha consolidated development plan?

If you can answer that; then maybe I’ll be able to focus on my pension annuity and work on my epitaph.  As my father always says ‘YOU’VE GOTTA HAVE A PLAN SON!’

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif alt=

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

Have you considered a Mac Pro?

We use them both as Windows CAD/3D animation machines and then reboot as a Mac OS X D.A.W.

On Mac OSX, it can access several megatons of RAM and I believe that the drivers now exist for networked as well as peer to peer mLAN.

The quality of the hardware is superb - you can install an extra hard drive without needing a paramedic (with suture) on standby and most importantly the Mac Pro is profoundly quiet.

Oh - and as a Coda, let me say that I shall not be in slightest bit surprised if “Now he tells me” is your understandable response!

Best regards,

Boulez

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

“future proofed” !?!? - don’t you belieive it. It is a multi-headed dragon, this technology chase. While you may be safe by having a computer that can run both 32-bit and 64-bit (but only short term), something else will come along that will change and force you to buy new computer hardware… that is what happens. And it seems like it will always happen.

Musicians, the part of the market I know best, tend to keep their hardware (musical instruments) a long time. They invest money and time learning what they can about it. The working musician (those that earn a full time living by playing - those that actually list “musician” on their tax returns) fall into two categories:
1) those that must stay on the cutting edge because competition in their field demands they have the latest gear: They buy often which means upgrade their gear every few years.
2) those that must cover the fundamental sound set to play the gig; bells and whistles need not apply: They keep the gear until it is physically damaged or simply gives up the ghost. Could be once a decade or may still have a DX7 (25 years) or SY77 (19 years) or EX5 (10 years)… or Motif Classic now more than 7 and half years ago…

Jingle writers, musical directors, film folks fall into the first category.... your weekend warriors/band guys fall into the second category.

But with computers every 18 months the computer industry will obsolete your computer hardware either by changing the operating system completely or obsoleting your connectivity… or something…

If you have a Motif Classic - you are still playing it and getting support from the manufacturer (just look at the Motif Classic forum here, still active).. The computer you purchased at the same time you purchased the Motif was equipped with things that no longer exist… perhaps it had SCSI connectivity, maybe it had an RS-232 serial port, probably had the last of 3.5” floppy disk drives (remember? that is why SmartMedia cards came in… computers stopped using floppy drives around this time), or maybe because you wanted to “Future proof” it - you purchased a built-in ZIP drive at great expense or a SYQUEST drive (you remember any of these???) Yikes!!!!
/forums/images/icons/smile.gif alt=

With Computers you are never going to be “future proofed"… This is why you should, as a musician, buy based on musical things, not bells and whistles, find the center of the movement and hang in there. Like a smart wilderbeast, hang out in the middle of the pack - if you are way out front or you lag too far behind, you are going to vulnerable and get eaten up by the predators.

Expect (strive) to make money with your gear… have it pay for itself, then buy wisely based on creative things (like music) not based strictly on the bells and whistles. If you use computers recognize that computers themselves are all about change… and that is their allure. New hardware, new software, new drivers, you have to embrace it, if you are going to be involved. If you are trying to get a decade or more out of a computer, I doubt it is going to be possible (my opinion of course)… If you get 18 months or as much as 3 years, consider yourself lucky!!!

Hope that makes sense.

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

OK - You Win!!

I now have a 32bit/64bit Vista Dual boot machine - I’m back to feeling the love for MLAN on 32bit!

But!…

I would appreciate some 64bit AI drivers at some point soon - so get those Yamaha coders off their ‘Tetris’ and working on my drivers....  erm Please?

Thanks in advance.

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif alt=

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

I have been using XP 64 bit for about 2 years.  I’m using the 01X that has 64 bit XP drivers.  My Motif ES Mlan works fantastic with this system as well.  When I got my XS8 few weeks ago, I had to give up on connected it to my MLAN system.

Vista 64 bit came standard on my new Laptop and my new desktop. (I don’t use these for music) The Toshiba laptop has 4 gig ram and was only $699 because I know how to find deals.  My desktop I paid $599 for a HP quad core 4 gigs ram with pretty good video card.  These are cheap but very powerful systems that most starving artists can afford.

I only have a few soft synths that don’t work with 64 bit.

Sonar seriously gets much better performance under 64 bit. When I do my big projects I try to use my 64 bit Orchestral Plugins.  I get a lot more performance out of 64 bit than I did with 32 bit.  I have 32 bit Sonar installed as well for legecy support with DXIs that I used to use in my old projects.  I have only 1 VSTi that doesn’t work on my system.  I have 8 gigs ram, and NO swapfile at all.  This allows my computer to really outperform what it used to do with even 4 gig with these big Sample libraries loaded.

I remember going to an AMD 64 Bit event where Yamaha was one of the main supporters about 3 years ago.  You had 4 Motif ES’s connected to 64 bit XP to show the power of 64 bit.

Now I have to say that vista 64 bit sucks bad............ Real bad.  There are many pieces of software that don’t run on that garbage.

In the other side XP64 bit is pretty darn stable, and the slight instability difference from XP 32 bit is well made up for by the performance I get out of my system.

My CPU meters are about 50% less when I’m running Sonar 64 bit compared to Sonar 32 bit so I try to run 64bit all the time.

I’m not worried personally about connecting my XS to my MLAN system that is working fantastic on XP64 bit with the older Mlan driver that is not compatible with the newer Mlan devices.  I would still hope that 64 bit drivers for the new Mlan stuff comes some day as the old Mlan driver works fantastic with 64 bit. 

In Yamaha’s defense, Tascam has been trying to get a Vista 64 bit driver out for a very long time for their Firewire system.  It is now supposed to be here in next month or two according to some Tascam bigwigs I have been in contact with.  The Issue with Tascam is that they have been saying “Any day now” for well over a year.

I would much rather hear the honesty than the bull so thank you for your honesty. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif alt=

Thanks for all your help here Bad Mister.  We all appreciate it quite a bit.

Jimstang

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

Newer mLan devices ARE compatible with classical mLan drivers. I run my XS8 with a 01X, i88x and mLan drivers 1.6.3

Do you mean only 64 bits drivers are not compliant with XS8 and mLan16E2?

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

On XP 64 bit you have to use 1.55 as 1.63 is not compatible with 64 bit and it won’t work with newer devices.

So you can combine them on 32 bit systems, but not on 64 bit systems. 

You can’t use any newer devices on 64 bit only the older Mlan devices like 01X, and Mlan card for Motif ES Ect.

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

Bad_Mister, I completely disagree with you on this.  Out of all the industries that will benefit the most from 64 bit it’s definitely the studio musicians.  RAM is so cheap these days and RAM availability is so important when working in the box with sample libraries and the likes.  I’m sad to hear that yamaha has no plans to support 64 bit.  I would go 64 bit in a second if my n12 & XS could support it.  Well since it doesn’t sound like this is in the works does that mean if I ever want to go 64 bit on my DAW I’m going to need to ditch my N12 & XS???

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

Well, I disagree with you, that you disagree with me… as I never said that musicians would not “benefit the most from 64-bit” technology… My point is that music production/musicians do not lead the way in these type of advances… quite the contrary… it is other computer activities that drive the advances (like gaming, and business for example). Heck, the GAME boxes were 128-bit years ago… All you have to do is go to a Consumer Electronic Show, which is about 100 times the size of the largest music industry trade show.

I happen to believe the music production world would actually put all that power to some good use. So I don’t know where you got any other idea.

Do not be “sad to hear” anything - no one, and especially not me, made any announcement about Yamaha’s plans to go or not go 64-bit. I think you need to re-read the thread. Sorry, but you are way, way off. Way off. Having a 64-bit computer is only the first step. If not all components in your music path are 64-bit it is simply having extra power you cannot put to use YET.

Patience is all it takes… if you rush out and buy a 64-bit system, you have to be prepared to wait for the MUSIC business to catch up.. that is the point. There are far more gamers out there than musicians. So we are not a cutting edge market, we follow, we do not lead. Sure what we do is important - there are simply not enough of us to demand that the computer industry do this or that!

Besides most music related software companies are mainly small enterprises in comparison - even your large music companies are small in comparison to the markets that are driving computer development. (Heck, musicians don’t even support computer companies that design music specific computers)…

If you are the first to buy a High Defiition TV you have to prepared in the beginning to wait for the rest of the folks to catch up. Not every thing is broadcast in 1080 (see my point). Eventually, perhaps, if you are patient enough, things catch up - just hope that it does not leap-frog your investment.

Re: Vista 64bit AI Driver!!!!

Good discussion.

I agree with Bad Misters excellent points.  Yamaha and many in the industry have been and are in a pinch with the 64 bit thing.  It takes a long time for a platform to get stable and everyone to be on the same page.  The 64 bit thing has it’s advantages but not every manufacturer wants to make the investment and be on the bleeding edge of a technology that will not be supported.  64 bit has been a catch 22 because windows 64 is pretty stable but Vista is the new hot thing.  Should companies invest in developing windows 64 when most new computers are shipping with Vista?  What about OSX?  Should they support the buggy failed Vista when it is known to have issues for music apps?  Will it ever be accepted as a standard in the music industry to the point that it is profitable?  Will your Vista compatible app be on an island of its own while the rest of the industry sits this one out?  Tough decision.

Personally there are enough problems with stability in music software so I try to stay behind the trend and stick with what works.  Unfortunately, no complete system to this day exists to a reasonable quality standard without shelling out tons of money on Pro Tools TDM.  Even then you get major trade offs after shelling out all that dough.  At the end of the day you will have to settle in a big way with what comes the closest for you.  Not that better solutions could not exist, but there is too much politics and lack of ethics and too many different things that have to work together for it to have all the goodies allowed by modern technology and be reasonably stable at the same time.