I am around a while on the mo song forum and other forums and I have noticed some comments about playing not correct acoustical instruments, because of wrong breath or lag of breath technics and playing about the register ranges of the acoustical instrument itself.

I mean is music not about emotion. If playing sax notes or trillers which are actually not possible on real instruments is necessary to create emotion in your song you may play it because your keyboard allows it.


So, is it a crime to use a synthesizer keyboard for simulating acoustical instruments like a sax, trumpet or oboe and with doing that exceeded the limits of that particular acoustical instrument?

In other words pretending playing an acoustical instrument while you are playing impossible notes or double notes.

Do we have to use the synthesizer only for typical electronic sounds or synthesized voices or whatever.

Re: is it a crime?

Jan, play as you wish, and here is why.
ONLY the musicians here or maybe anywhere are concerned about the correctness of what is being heard, while at the same time knowing that what they are hearing, is coming from a synth.

THE LISTENING PUBLIC,,does NOT give a damn how, nor where from the music is made, just as long as it is sounding good to their ears.

I have mentioned this several times in the past.
We synth players and musicians in general have totally LOST our listening ear to the techics of the sounds.
Whereas the general public, won’t be as super sensitive about what they are listening to,,,they only care that it sounds great,,,SO if it sounds great to YOUR FIRST,,then that is all that matters.

If your writting for someone that has the regular instrument, the real one, then ofcourse you would have try to duplicate the exact note in the exact range for the real instrument.
CURRENTLY, is is NOT OF ANY IMPORTANCE to the listen public, in whom STILL has a listening ear, and that ear buys the music which is created by the player of the synth.

Most of the music you hear today is programmed music, and/or played on a sythn or sampler.
Ignore such stupidity of the over critical musician that is doing basically the same thing as you are.

Don’t forget how to listen to and enjoy music, just because you play a keyboard, that would be a great loss.
Some of the best songs I’ve heard lately, have come from a synthisizer/keyboard/workstation.

Don’t become lost in the darkness of a dead ear,,but instead, embrase music for what it is,,ENJOYABLE SOUND.

Hope that helps ya.

Re: is it a crime?

Hi Jan,

I guess it depends on your listeners. When I hear a sax solo, I think in terms of the real instrument with a real player. I know he has to breath and has certain technical limitations and so on. Because of this, we as listeners are conditioned to hearing the natural way. When someone plays a rif on a keyboard that is too long, our ears naturally pick that up and call it ‘wrong’ or ‘unnatural’.

Is it wrong? Well it depends on what you’re trying to do I guess. If you as the composer are happy with it, then that’s all that really matters I guess. Listeners won’t understand in most cases.

To me, that’s the wonderful thing about synthesized sounds - sounds that do not exist from physical instruments. Here we are free to do whatever we’d like because there is no physical limitations, and our listeners have not been conditioned for their entire life to what one ‘should’ sound like.

Just an opinion.

Bob

Re: is it a crime?

Spongybob,,,your way wrong,,"We as listeners” to whom are you refering too?
The listener or the musician that is listening, and most likely won’t even buy the freaking song?
We the musicians, may hear the synth sax sound, as say that’s impossible to play,,,but we the listen public, none musician, will most likely say,,what a nice song, nice solo,a nd most likely buy the song, if that like it.

See the difference?
Maybe yuor one of those that forgot how to listen and totally enjoy a song?
That’s the trouble when you try to sell a musician a song, they can find a thousand things wrong with it, whereas the public can find a thousand thing correct with it.  LOL

Sometimes being a musician can be a disadvantage.

Re: is it a crime?

A synthesizer is a musical instrument in its own right.
Apart from the fact that a key player can do things a ‘breath-player’
can never do or reverse, simply because of the different way of controlling
an instrument, each instrument can be played with special effects which are
unique to that instrument; e.g. application of automation on a synthesizer.

If a voice in a synthesizer is called ‘Viola’ it is not because it mimics
such an instrument, but simply because the item has to have a name.
It’s no use naming voices or performances 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ....
so we give them a name that can be remembered.
Everybody who has ever (tried to) play(ed) a string instrument knows
that strings is just a class of sounds on the synthesizer: most orchestral
manoeuvres are sheer impossible to copy.

And if you want the ‘real’ thing (real sax, real B3), then grab the real thing.
;JOOP!

Re: is it a crime?

Bob,


Thats an interesting view : “If you as the composer are happy with it, then that’s all that really matters I guess. Listeners won’t understand in most cases”

I am a sax player from origin, but when I playing my keyboard and using a sax voice I play it as a keyboard voice and at the same time I try to let it sound like a sax, within the range from bariton to soprano. I have no problem at all with that.

When I play a real sax I automatically have to obey to physical and mechanical limits of my body and instrument. LOL. Thatswhy I like the synthesizer very much. No physical limits.

I realise that syntesizer manufacturers like Yamaha tries to create voices as real as possible. Trying to simulate complete orchestral sounds as real as possible. Ofcourse it is a fight they cannot win. You cannot beat a real bigband or symphonic orchestra with a synthesizer or software libraries. So why do they continue with that real sound approach. I wonder.

Is the ultimate goal, replacing life musicians with synthesizers. LOL

Jan

Re: is it a crime?

Jerry,

I think you are right about the buyer of music content. In general they will buy (copy) music they find pleasant to listen to. Mostly music with a loud beat and simple melody and the do not care about what instruments are used of what an instrument is capable to do or not.

Ofcourse musicians, especially professional musicians are indeed listening with other ears to music. I mean musicians playing acoustical instruments, not the synthesizer people. Synthesizer people have other kind of ears. Sample/loop ears, no offends frends.

The question however remains, are you allowed to use all synthesizer sounds, representing acoustical instruments, like horns, brass, strings etc. without respect for their physical and mechanical limits.

Jan

Re: is it a crime?

I think Joop has a point here. A synthesizer is an instrument on his own and with his own rights.

The only limit is the limit of the player and his play technics. Ofcourse you still have the limit of the key action (physical limit of the keyboard itself).

Jan

Re: is it a crime?

To answer your question, YES you are allowed, UNLESS you want another musician that is playing the real instrument your mimicing to play back what you’ve gave him.
So if your NOT composing for another musician that will be playing the synthed instrument, no problem, go freakin crazy with that sax sample, make it talk,,heck, dubb it with a vocorder sound,,just make it sound great.

Re: is it a crime?

Of course you can do whatever you want. That’s not the point here (I think). You can put your Motif XS out in the garden if you like. It’s permitted.

Perhaps musical context is the missing element here. Play however you’d like, but please don’t try to sell me a sax or flute solo in ‘The Girl From Ipanema’ where the player can hold the same breath for 3 minutes, play 5 notes at the same time or switch between a baritone and soprano sax within the time it takes to play a sixteenth note. It just won’t fly if believability is your goal.

If something else is your goal, then go for it. But don’t be too surprised if very few people understand what you’re doing.

That’s what I meant.

Bob

Re: is it a crime?

LOL, ofcourse that would be crazy SB.oh boy.
As fro the five notes, why not have five people playing sax in each key to one?
Anyway, I knew what you ment.
If your playing good realistic music, then you might stay within the scop of the emulated instrument, logically and musically, even to the point of it becomeing a No Brainer.:” LOL

Thanks for the smile/forums/images/icons/smile.gif alt=

Re: is it a crime?

Composing for yourself, you can do what you want.

However, when someone hires you to do a track and they ask for
something that has a brass section in it, or strings, or guitar tracks, or really anything that is an instrument other than a keyboard, then it is very important that your parts be as convincing sounding as possible.

I can’t tell you how many times, way back, of course, that I added brass parts to a track, only to have clients say, “that sounds like a bunch of harmonicas”. Or done what I thought was a good cello solo, only to have someone say, “that doesn’t sound like any cello I’ve heard”.

Particularly in the movie and television business, budgets have been cut way down, and producers often turn to one person to do all the music. They want what sounds like a real orchestra, or big band, on a shoestring budget. The guys and gals who are making a living doing music for movies and tv are the ones who can pull this off.

One of my favorite composer/programmers is a guy named Geoff Stradling, who incidentally has done a lot of work for Yamaha as well.
I’ve heard big band tracks he did that sounded completely realistic, to the point that I thought they were actual recordings of real guys in a room - and it was all Geoff, playing all the parts from a keyboard.

It isn’t just the sound of acoustic instruments that you need to pay attention to, it is their ranges and behavior. A common mistake keyboard players make is holding brass and wind notes way too long, or missing details like the fact that a violin’s lowest note is G2, and that is an open string, which can’t produce vibrato. Another example - a velocity-triggered “slide"note on the low E of a guitar sound. There is no way to physically bend up on an open low E
on a guitar.

Human beings do take note of details, even if they do it subconsciously. The more attention to details, the more realistic your instrumental tracks will be - IF realism is your goal.

Re: is it a crime?

Bob,

I think you right. When you play classics like the girl from etc. you cannot fool around. You always hear Stan Getz playing the tenor, or you hear Gilberto playing the guitar in another bossanova.

My post was maybe a little bit confronting. I also think Dave has a big point too.

Still it is dependent of the camp you are in. Are you the composer using the synthesizer to create music as realistic as possible or, are you the one who are using sounds to create music.

I promise from now on, when I make a song with a lead instrument like sax, flute ect. I will make first a study of the tone range and other specs of that particular instrument and will do my best to make it sound as real as possible. LOL.

For the sax I have no problems with that. The rest of all the instruments I have to go to music school again.

Jan

Re: is it a crime?

I have to get behind DaveP on this. The “character” and the range of the instrument are key in making it “sound realistic”. I too have heard work done by people who use keyboards to execute Horns,Reeds and Strings and swore that there was a roon full of musicians playing. Dave once pointed out many posts ago,that when one is using Horns and Reeds,particularly in an “orchestra” format, each must be treated individually to get the “feel/sound” of a band.

It’s funny that you mention the Sax because,as I understand it, it is one of the most difficult voice to sample to produce a “realistic” sound. I was told it was, “the nature of the instrument”. As a Sax player, I would “think” that when you do lay down “Sax” parts with a Keyboard you would still “think” like a Sax player. That is, play the solos as you would on a “Sax”. Bad_Mister, many posts ago, talked about Drums and that most Keyboard players “think” like Keyboard players when they lay down Drums. They ma tend to add “arms” and “feet” to a pattern impossible to be played by a “Drummer”.

I guess the point is, and I’m struggling with this now, try and maintain the “character” of whatever instrument it is and the human factors that are a part of that character as best you can. After all....it “IS” a Sampled sound of an instrument that is being played on a Keyboard.
Just a thought.....

Re: is it a crime?

Jan,

It would be a fun challenge to compose a song that purposely selects and plays instrument sounds that are all well out of their natural ranges. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif alt=

Bob

Re: is it a crime?

It seems to me there are essentially three possibilities:

1) You want to imitate a saxophone (or whatever instrument):

In this case try to get as close as possible (without killing yourself) and don’t do anything a saxophone can’t do or even wouldn’t be likely to do. (Bear in mind, though, that imitating an instrument is aesthetically justifiable only in limited circumstances: demos, and so on.)

2) You want to be perverse--not the best term here, but you get the idea; you want to mutilate a saxophone.

In this case get far, far away (eventually) from the things a saxophone can do. Leave no doubt in the listener’s mind as to your aesthetic intention.

3) You want to make electronic music.

In this case, the possible sounds you can create go so far beyond ersatz versions of traditional instruments that it makes no sense whatsoever to use a saxophone sample at all. 

As best as I can make out what Jan is suggesting is wrong for all three possibilites. Sorry.