I bought a Motif Rack about 5 years ago and made some nice demos. Then I went to grad school and had no life. I just took my MR (Motif Rack) and keyboard controller out of the closet, installed Sonar6 home on my Vista-based PC, and started doing the Sonar tutorials which sound great through the MR.

I’m slightly dazed and cornfuzed about Multis (I blew out some of my memory in the 60’s). I thought that whatever multi the MR is set to is the set of patches that I would get sound-wise on each of the 16 MIDI channels regardless of what patch I selected in Sonar (note - I imported the motif-rack instrument definition file into Sonar).  I can however switch the patch on a track (like go to syth-bass from fretless) and hear the change. I can’t however change the drum kit, even if I make a new drum map that selects a different drum Bank (MSB/LSB) and Patch. So my first question is “how the heck does that work - i.e. Multis with a sequencer.” I’ve read the manual a few times to no avail.

Next question - I went to create a new multi on the MR and it was kind of a pain in the arse compared to programming on the computer.  I noticed that there is a Motif-Rack Multi Part Editor avaiable for download. I’ve read other threads and I assume that it will let me create a multi on my PC and dump it to the rack. The download page says I need to have Studio Manager installed to run the Multi-Part Editor. There is a Vista version for the Studio Manager, but I only see an XP version of the MultiPart Editor (non-ES). Does anyone running Vista know if I can download the Vista Manager and the XP MultiPart Editor and run them both on Vista?  What about downloading the MultiPart ES Editor for Vista - will it work with a non-ES rack?

Thanks - Litvak

Re: Relative newbie questions about MultiPart Editor

So I played with the Sonar tutorials some more this evening and I have new questions. When I have all the instruments assigned to different tracks, I can select different patches in the same bank, but I can only change the bank on the track assigned to MIDI channel 1. So I put all the tracks to channel 1, and I could change the bank on each track. Much to my amazement the MotifRack played all 6 instruments (from different banks) with Sonar assigning every track to the same MIDI channel. I didn’t think two patches could coexist on the same MIDI channel.  Then I changed the channels so that every track was on a different channel. The patches from the different banks all played, but Sonar had the wrong name for the patch - it displayed the patch name for the same number from channel 1’s bank. I’m fairly confused!

Re: Relative newbie questions about MultiPart Editor

Litvak, welcome to the forums.  Hopefully we can get you straightened out.  /forums/images/icons/smile.gif alt=

The MULTIs are nothing but a collection of patches that come from the factory.  I can’t imagine too many cases where those MULTIs would be used as-is.... most of the time we make them our own and never use the factory presets much.

In fact, I have recorded almost a dozen tunes using a single MULTI; SONAR sends all the appropriate instrument info to the rack when I open each tune’s file.

I’m an ES-RACK user, so there might be subtle differences here, but about the only thing I’d be storing in a MULTI would be Arpeggio data, insert definitions, EQs, and master effects.  Pretty much everything else comes in from SONAR.

Studio Manager / Voice Editor / Multi Editor all work fine under Vista as far as I can tell (I use Vista Home Premium.)

As to your second post, that’s confusing.  In SONAR, as long as your Instrument Definition file is correctly imported into an Instrument tree, it should send MSB/LSB/PC any time you select a voice.  In fact, every time you press PLAY, it should send that data.

What you’re describing sounds like sonar is either sending the wrong MSB/LSB, or not sending it at all, in which case only the PC (patch change message) will seem to take effect.

When you say you put all the tracks to Channel 1, do you mean you did that in SONAR, in the Rack’s MULTI definition, or both?

Two patches can definately exist on the same channel.

A MULTI is a collection of 16 PARTS (or more if you have PLGs).  Each PART can reside on its own channel, or can share a channel with any other PART.  This is useful if you want to layer voices together.

SONAR, on the other hand, can RECEIVE into multiple TRACKs from multiple INPUTS simultaneously.  For example, let’s say you have two keyboards, one transmitting on Channel 1, the other on Channel 2.

The default nature of SONAR would allow you to ARM tracks 7 and 8 (or any other combination), start recording, and anything you play on EITHER keyboard (or both) will be recorded into BOTH track 7 and track 8.  IE, those two recorded clips would be identical by DEFAULT.)

However, when you go to play, Track 7 will only be routed to whatever MIDI device and channel you have stored as its OUTPUT channel.  Same thing for Track 8.

You have to be aware of how SONAR is treating your MIDI devices INPUTs and OUTPUTs.

I, though, can imagine only a few arrangements where ALL TRACKs are sending on CHANNEL 1, and being reproduced with unique voices per track. 

The only way I can see this working is if they’re NOT playing simultaneously, and a PC message is being sent along with the MIDI data at the appropriate time.

The other possibilities is that the tracks are actually going to Soft Synths, not your RACK, but the way you describe it, that’s not happening.

So, make sure that ALL the channels in SONAR are mapped in the INSTRUMENT definition to all of the RACK’s channels.

Re: Relative newbie questions about MultiPart Editor

Hi Tony,

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. You’re explanations are great, and they aren’t in the manuals and books I’ve got. I’d like to test my understanding of a few of the big points you made:

1) “MULTIs are nothing but a collection of patches...SONAR sends all the appropriate instrument info to the rack”

So, if I want to keep it simple and do all my bank and patch selection in SONAR, I can simply ignore what MULTI is loaded when I power on the rack. If, however, a MULTI is adding things like master effects, then I need to dial it up on the rack itself, and not select it via SONAR. Is that right?

2) “When you say you put all the tracks to Channel 1, do you mean you did that in SONAR”

Yes. If I didn’t select channel 1 for a track in SONAR, I couldn’t see all the bank definitions in the bank pulldown for that track. I could only see patches (I think they were GM).  I’m quite sure that the MotifRack Instrument Definition File that I imported into SONAR (via Instruments/Import) is only visible when channel 1 is assigned to a track.

3) “Two patches can definitely exist on the same channel ... the only way I can see this working is if they’re NOT playing simultanesouly”

So, putting all tracks on the same channel is a bad practice. You might get bad artifacts - right?

4) “make sure that ALL the channels in SONAR are mapped in the INSTRUMENT definition to all of the RACK’s channels”

That sounds like it would fix my bugs. It makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, I don’t know how to do that. Do I need to edit the ‘ins’ file, or is it a setting in an ‘instrument’ submenu.  I’m at work, so I’ll try poking around tonight. All I remember selecting when I imported it is what “port” the instrument definition file is associated with.  Isn’t a port “greater” than a set of tracks?  Say I have two midi interfaces attached to my computer, one from my soundcard and one from a firewire D/A box. Each of those is a port?

Thanks again dude!
Litvak

Re: Relative newbie questions about MultiPart Editor

1) Multis are a bit more than just a bunch of Voices… True they are 16 VOICES in the 16 PARTS of the Multi… but it is the PART parameters that are also important. PART parameters are those that are memorized in the MULTI and are applied to each of the 16 Voices on a per PART basis.

The PART parameters include all your mix settings… that is, the volume of each of the 16 PART (18 if you have PLG150 boards installed), the pan position of each of the PARTS, any Note Shifting you have done, the 3-band EQ per Part, the send amount to the Reverb effect and the Chorus effect processors, which of the Parts are recalling their Dual Insertion Effects, etc., etc., etc.

You can address each individual PART via MIDI on a separate channel (which means you will be spending lots of time editing each track in SONAR) or you can have Sonar recall the MULTI with just a single command.

Let’s say your Motif Rack is set to MIDI RECEIVE CHANNEL 1.  You can send a command to the Motif Rack that will tell it what MULTI to recall
MSB 63 / LSB 65 and a Program change from 1-128

Simply place a BANK message of 8129 on a track set to transmit on MIDI channel 1 to the Motif Rack - this will address Multi mode - then set the Program Change number to match the Multi you wish to recall.

If your Instrument Definition does not include MULTI -bank 8129 option, then simply leave the Bank Select blank and use Program 1-128. That should work - (I’m no expert on Sonar but that should do it) Let us know.

On your other Tracks you can use the Instrument Definition’s 8064, 8065, 8066, 8067, etc. banks for individual Tracks and PARTS (if you want).

2) Get a better Instrument Definition /forums/images/icons/smile.gif alt=
I don’t see how this is possible. The MIDI channel should not matter. You can download one from the MotifMart for the the Motif Rack

http://files.keyfax.com/forums/user-files/390493-SonarINS.JPG

Above you can see that MIDI Track 1 is routed to the Motif Rack, the channel = 1, BANK is blank and I am recalling MULTI 128.

MIDI Track 2 is routed to the Motif Rack Channel is 1 but the Instrument Definition is selecting BANK 8064 (Preset 1) and I have the Power Grand selected as the Program Change

MIDI Track 3 is routed to the Motif Rack, MIDI channel is 2, BANK is 8068 (Preset 5), and Progrma Change is Velomaster…

Now you can simply use TRACK 1 in the example above to recall a stored MULTI - which will automatically recall the VOICES you stored in the Motif Rack - in which case you do not have to use the Instrument Definition for any of the other tracks in SONAR - it is up to you… but recalling a MULTI using the example (Track 1) recalls all the setting stored in MULTI 128.

It’s up to you.

Re: Relative newbie questions about MultiPart Editor

Litvak,
#1> What Bad_Mister says is the same thing explained differently, and it all amounts to how you want to use your DAW.  I choose to let SONAR send all the pertinent info (Volume, Pan, Transpose, etc) instead of customizing my MULTI with that.  SONAR does this quite handily.  The EQ settings, however, will not be natively defined in SONAR, but even then it’s possible by sending SysEx or CC data if you know what you’re trying to do.  The “Easy” way to do it is just dependent on how your workflow is set up.

#2> What seems to be described here is that the MIDI INSTRUMENT selection (not the .INS File) isn’t including all the MIDI Device’s CHANNELS.

In Sonar, you first select the MIDI DEVICES.  This is done on a Per-Port level; the ES-RACK presents itself as 8 inputs and 1 output if using the USB interface.  Not sure how the original RACK does it.  Of course, if you’re using a DIFFERENT interface (via MIDI cables,) it’d be up to your specific MIDI interface how it presents itself.

Then, once you’ve selected the midi DEVICE, you need to map each CHANNEL of that device to the INSTRUMENT definition.

You do this under the MIDI INSTRUMENTS menu.

When you select this menu, on the left you’ll see ALL of the MIDI DEVICES’ inputs you defined previously.  On the Right, you’ll see a collection of various instruments that you created, imported, or came shipped with SONAR.  In other words, if you imported the RACK’s .INS file, you’ll see it here.

Then you need to map EACH of the 16 channels to the Instrument so that Sonar has a clue as to which patchlist you should be presented.

It seems kinda silly if all you’re using is the RACK on a particular MIDI port, but it makes sense in complex routing situations where you may have multiple physical tone generators sharing the same MIDI chain.  If you decide you want the RACK to respond to Midi Channels 1-10, and, say, an Alesis to respond to Midi Channels 11-16 on the same leg, then you would go into the Instrument Definition, highlight channels 1-10 and assign them to the RACK’s .INS file, and 11-16 to the Alesis’s INS file.

When you do it that way, you’re always shown the correct selection of patches for the channel you select.

If you’re only seeing patches for the Rack if you pick Channel 1, it sounds like 2-16 are not defined properly.

Re: Relative newbie questions about MultiPart Editor

Hi Tony and Bad_Mister,

I really think you guys should collaborate on a book. I’ve gotten more information on this topic from your posts than I culled from hours of reading my MOTIF manual and the Garrigus book.

So Tony’s instructions on how to get all tracks to display the Motif instrument definitions when using MIDI channels other than channel one worked perfectly. I opened Options/Instruments and only Output/Channel Out/1 was mapped to the MotifRack.  When I mapped all 16 channels to the MotifRack everything worked as advertised! (see attachment)

Bad_Mister, I haven’t had time yet to try and select a Multi as you described. I’ll do it this weekend.

Again, you guys are great!

Cheers,
Litvak

Re: Relative newbie questions about MultiPart Editor

Heheheh..  Thanks for the compliment, but I don’t think I could even walk in Bad_Mister’s shadow.  /forums/images/icons/smile.gif alt=

In case you didn’t know, Mister has written SEVERAL awesome digests on advanced topics (and good clarifications for beginners, too) here on Keyfax. 

Up on the top menu, click RACKs, then navigate to the Behind the Manual section.  Tons of good info.

Re: Relative newbie questions about MultiPart Editor

Hi Bad_Mister,

I tried your approach to selecting a Multi from Sonar 6, and it worked, but I have some confusion. My instrument definition (which I got from this website) does not appear to have an 8129 option, so I set the Bank to “Bank:---” (blank). Then I could set the patch from 1-128 and I got the corresponding User Multi from 1-128 showing up on the Motif-Rack’s display and the patch being played on channel 1 corresponded to the Multi’s patch for channel 1.  So here are my new questions:

1) I also got the Multi’s drum track playing when I soloed track 1.  If I also turned on the drum track (mapped to a bank rather than I multi), I got two different drum track playing simultaneously.  I don’t understand this.

2) If I want the other tracks to play the multi do I have to set their banks blank and select the same Multi as track 1?

3) I notice that there is also a “Multi Library” described in the Motif manual. Are those just used to help create the user Multis, or can you also select those from the sequencer (Sonar)?

4) Would the MultiPart Editor allow me to create Multis on my computer and then dump them to the Motif Rack?

5) What can I do with the “Studio Manager” downloadable software?

Thanks again,
Litvak

Re: Relative newbie questions about MultiPart Editor

1) I also got the Multi’s drum track playing when I soloed track 1. If I also turned on the drum track (mapped to a bank rather than I multi), I got two different drum track playing simultaneously. I don’t understand this.

I don’t understand the question… sorry.

2) If I want the other tracks to play the multi do I have to set their banks blank and select the same Multi as track 1?

No. You only need one track to address the Motif Rack as a whole… and then the individual tracks address the PARTS of the MULTI.

3) I notice that there is also a “Multi Library” described in the Motif manual. Are those just used to help create the user Multis, or can you also select those from the sequencer (Sonar)?

See the article in the Behind the Manual section for the “Racks” on The USER MULTI

4) Would the MultiPart Editor allow me to create Multis on my computer and then dump them to the Motif Rack?

Yes, and it is much better than Instrument Definitions which do not memorize anything but the Voice name. The Multi-Part Editor will memorize your entire MIX - every parameter - some people get married to those instrument definitions - I don’t use them… I’d rather have the Multi-Part Editor be the selection device for my Multi because it memorizes every parameter - not just the name of the Voice I used. but “...different strokes for different folks, and so on, and so on...”

5) What can I do with the “Studio Manager” downloadable software?

Studio Manager is a host application that allows you to run hardware editors… like the Multi-Part Editor and the Voice Editor.

Re: Relative newbie questions about MultiPart Editor

Hi Bad_Mister,
Thanks again. I think I’m on the verge of not having any more questions about Multis. I just have a couple loose ends.

1) So if I select a multi in track 1 I don’t need to select banks or patches in the other tracks. I just need to set each Sonar MIDI track to the MIDI channel that corresponds to the appropriate part in the multi. Is that about right?

2) I downloaded Vista versions of Studio Manager, Multi-Part Editor, and Voice Editor. The Vista editors are listed for the “MotifRack ES”.  There aren’t Vista versions for the older non-ES. Do you know if the newer editors work with the older non-ES MotifRack?

3) You’ve already commented on the advantage of doing all the per part parameters in a Multi instead of simply selecting a bank and patch via Sonar + an ins file. One of my buddies recommends using the ins file approach followed by recording the audio output of the MIDI sound module to audio tracks in Sonar. He then applies all the final effects, eq, and envelopes to the audio tracks (and mutes the MIDI tracks). He seems to think that’s the most flexible approach? What do you think of that approach?

Re: Relative newbie questions about MultiPart Editor

1) right. The MULTI will recall all the Voices, all the Volumes, all the pan positions, ensure that the effects are correct. A Multi - is ready to go.

2) No they do not. The Motif-Rack is very different from the Motif-Rack ES.

3) I, for one find that the INS file approach unsatisfying for all the reasons I gave you… because it does not make use of all the effects and edit capabilities of the Motif-Rack itself. It simply is a way to recall what VOICE you used. The Motif Rack is not a GM module where you do not have the ability to edit except from the computer. You can edit the Motif Rack Voices and customize them for your music.

If you don’t know the parameters and functions of the Rack then instrument definitions (admittedly) make it very easy to select a VOICE for a track… but what about the Insert Effects - on which PARTS are those active? etc., etc., etc. What if you have a custom library loaded into the Motif Rack - your INS file will not reflect those new sounds.

There are as many ways to work as there are users… What I think and what your friend thinks is really meaningless… you work with the gear and find what works best for you. That is all that matters. Certainly the way he works is valid (for him)… sometimes recording data to individual audio tracks is good, sometimes it is just simply unnecessary - it depends on the project.

I don’t always do the same thing.. It depends. Sometimes you spend hours - spliting everything to separate audio tracks and by the time you add computer effects, EQ and the rest, and you compare it to the original - and the original is better.

Sometimes that’s hard to admit to yourself… because you spend hours spliting everything up… sometimes you work hard just to get it to sound as good as you had it… But don’t be afraid to admit it sounded better before (if it is true). Flexible is in the eye of the beholder.

Good luck!

Re: Relative newbie questions about MultiPart Editor

Well I’d say this post/thread is done!  I want to thank TonyPhillips and Bad_Mister for enlightening me with details that I couldn’t find in books or manuals. The “behind the manual” section of this site is also awesome. You guys have bootstrapped me into having a blast with Sonar 6 and my good old MotifRack.

Thanks,
Litvak