If I play a voice with 8 elements -which actually uses 4 out of 8 at any given point based on a thread I read here at motifator-, and it`s stereo (x2 polyphony), this equals for one note (4x2) 8 polyphony points. So by playing a chord with both hands using ten keys (10 notes not arpeggio but at the same time) that would be equal to 80 points of polyphony? That leaves us with 48 polyphony (out of 128). Can someone knowledgeable verify if this is correct?

PS playing a chord with ten keys is unlikely -i know it isn`t done often- I`m just trying to get the math straight…

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

And then you hit the sustain pedal /forums/images/icons/wink.gif alt=

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

Are you basically saying that there is even a possibility to max out with just one piano and a sustain pedal? i.e in the previous example if I play ten notes and press sustain that can amount to 160? Boy am I confused…

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

It is not very hard to run out of polyphony when you use the sustain pedal...(it is same if you increase the EG release time)

I do that when i play Dream Theater’s “wait for sleep.” you need to layer both piano and strings and set the release time to 7-8.  ( Or you can also use the sustain pedal. ) I prefer to use the EG relase knob.  Much easier than manipulating the sustain pedal. 


Anyways...128 isnt bad for my ES.  A lot better that my classic.  ...but...but...but.....the XS....hmm....arent we supposed to get twice the polyphony with that… ..rather than more guitar samples…

Damn i need more coffee this morning.. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif alt=

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

Love that song “wait for sleep” I can never keep the timing right on that song....very hard for me!!!

I have been using release rate too lately even on pianos instead of the sustain pedal.  Stinks you can’t adjust the sustain when using the pedal....its either all or nothing.

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

While it is true that up to 4 elements can play at once and that stereo waveforms require 2 notes of poly per element, it is unlikely that a single note will in fact use all 4 elements. These elements are usually velocity splt so that only one or two are actually playing at once. Even if more than one elements is playing at the same time, it is likely that each elemtent would decay at different rates (some being VERY short) so these oscillators are recovered quickly.

For example, a piano voice may have 4 layers (elements) but each is velocity split (eg: p, mp, f, ff) so that only one is playing at a time. given your example that you play a 10 note chord, the maximum poly you’ll use is in fact 20 and not 80.

While it is true that you can run out of poly (I do it all the time doing orchestral scoring), it is unlikely that this will happen playing a solo instrument like piano or even piano and strings. Even if you somehow manage to do it (That’s a lot of sound, i.e. VERY MUDDY) the note stealling in the Motif line is amazing and I doubt you could hear it.

Rodney

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

I understand that in just playing single or even layered instruments but when composing and playing a sequenced peice of music ,wont there be a much greater chance of polyphony problems ????? Has anyone actually done any sequencing on the board yet using fairly dense sequences ?

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

I’ve now owned 3 synths with 128 note polyphony: an XV-5080, an ES8, and currently my XS8.  I’ve never used all 128 notes of polyphony on any of them.  I use mostly piano + backing synth pad + guitar + bass + drums on the tracks I compose, with full-fisted piano chords.  People are making an issue out of something that is, in practice, a non-issue.  There is always re-sampling in the XS and old-fashioned overdubbing in Cubase.  Would 256 notes be better? Of course, but no one else has that much polyphony so I don’t see a reason to harp on Yamaha for it.  By the time you max out 128 notes with piano, synth, organ, strings, you’re talking about sonic mud.

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

People are making an issue out of something that is, in practice, a non-issue. There is always re-sampling in the XS and old-fashioned overdubbing in Cubase. Would 256 notes be better? Of course, but no one else has that much polyphony so I don’t see a reason to harp on Yamaha for it

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

In reply to:

“People are making an issue out of something that is, in practice, a non-issue. There is always re-sampling in the XS and old-fashioned overdubbing in Cubase. Would 256 notes be better? Of course, but no one else has that much polyphony so I don’t see a reason to harp on Yamaha for it”


A non-issue?  You must be joking.  Either that, or you are not using sustain and/or layering voices together much.  Maybe you can get away with it in a studio by re-sampling, etc., but on a live stage it is another matter altogether and where those other options wouldn’t be conducive to live play.  With the 8 element voice architecture (even though only 4 elements are triggered at any one time) plus the layering of other voices plus the sustain pedal and you can see where the 128 note polyphony on the Motif XS could theoretically run out quite easily.  And unfortunately the XS is not expandable so as to further increase the 128 polyphony it already has, unlike the Motif ES which can do so by way of the PLG cards.  Yamaha gave the XS more possible elements per voice but unfortunately they didn’t increase the amount of total polyphony to address the larger 8 element per voice architecture.  How silly of them. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif alt=

On the other hand, we now see keyboard manufacturers starting to go beyond the 128 note “threshold” that we have experienced for several years now.  Korg gave the OASYS 172 note polyphony and Ketron is giving their new top-of-the-line workstation Arranger called the ‘Audya’ 197 notes of polyphony.  Well, you might say, Korg better give the OASYS more polyphony at the exorbitant price they’re asking for it, nevertheless Ketron’s Audya beats the OASYS polyphony by double digits and is less than half the cost of the OASYS.  So don’t think to increase polyphony that manufacturers have to somehow substantially increase the price of the keyboard.  That is not necessarily so although manufacturers may want you to believe that it is. 

You have to keep on your toes and keyboard manufacturers realize that for them to keep up they have to eventually break the stereotypical mode and launch into new areas to stay cutting edge and relevant or else they will see a sharp drop in their marketshare over time.  Those manufacturers that lead the way in staying cutting edge are typically the ones that will continue to increase their marketshare and expand their consumer base.  The Motif XS is an attempt by Yamaha to do something unique in the way of a more total Keyboard/Computer integration.  I applaud them for their effort although it is anyone’s guess as to whether or not it is the right direction for them to take.  For instance, look at the new Apple iPhone.  It is just a cell phone but it is really much more than that.  Apple had the ingenuity to put the “full” version of OS X plus the Safari web browser into the iPhone thereby giving the consumer a much richer and satisfying multimedia experience within the device itself and something no other cell phone currently on the market can compete with.  Sure the Motif XS can hook up to a computer and they can communicate back and forth to each other and much can be accomplished but nevertheless they are “two” pieces of equipment that are “disconnected” from each other (expect through cabling) and it can be a hassle to get them up and running together smoothly and on a continuous basis.  OTOH, the iPhone is self contained and self “sustaining” except when you want to charge it or update it..  It is the computer, it is the phone, (and so much more) encapsulated in “one” single device.  How ingenious is that? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif alt=

My own personal opinion does not coincide with what Yamaha is attempting to do with the Motif XS i.e. computer/keyboard integration.  Rather, my view coincides with what Apple has done with the iPhone (and Openlabs and Lionstracs are doing with the Neko and Mediastation) i.e., provide integration, but do it on a single device instead of trying to integrate two ‘separate’ devices together - i.e. “a Computer to a Keyboard” or vice versa.

We shall see which concept eventually wins out.  Although if the upcoming and incredibly huge waiting lines for the iPhone are any indication, the “one” device concept should, in my opinion, be a veritable slam dunk.

PS: Sorry for straying a bit off topic but in trying to get my point across I needed to extrapolate a little bit. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif alt= And yes, Yamaha’s next flagship workstation will no doubt break the “128” note polyphony barrier also.  By how much is anyone’s guess but I wouldn’t be surprised if they gave it 256.  OTOH, in three or four years when the new Yammie workstation rolls off the assembly line 256 note polyphony may be meager in comparison to what other keyboard manufacturers will be offering at that time.  Although only time will tell how things eventually pan out. 

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

“A non-issue? You must be joking.”

I’m not laughing.  I call it a non-issue because it seems to only bother 1) folks that don’t have an XS, and 2) folks that are caught up in specifications and like to dream up hypothetical situations instead of, erm, playing music.

“Either that, or you are not using sustain and/or layering voices together much. Maybe you can get away with it in a studio by re-sampling, etc., but on a live stage it is another matter altogether and where those other options wouldn’t be conducive to live play.”

Dude, I’m a pianist.  My right foot is hard-wired to the sustain pedal.  I’ve played in jazz bands, pop bands, ska bands, and wedding bands.  I started with an 8 note polyphonic synth with layered voices (that’s right, 4 note chords max).  We still made great music.  What’s your point?  Mine is that 128 notes is reasonable for 99% of XS users.  The other 1% have already written it off because of the color or the lack of PLG expansion or the viewing angle of the LCD or some other nonsense.  The rest of us are having a ball with this machine.

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

Jazzbozo you have jumped off the mark way too early ! How can you critisize a genuine query about how the XS handles polyphony ? No one in this thread has made any decision as to its capability or is inability . I and other posters simply want to know if it might be a potential problem thats all. I know lots of musicians who bought the original motif thinking it was the best thing since sliced bread until they started to layer sounds and use them in a sequence. Others have used the successor to the motif , the ES having heard all those wonderful arps only to find that when they play them live with thicker sounds that notes started to drop off.

All you have to do is state that you use the XS for sequencing and that you use dense sequences and have not noticed any problem with polyphony, job done , end of enquiry.Or that you use dense sequences and there has been note drop off. Either way you will have helped somebody with their enquiry.

I am at a loss as to why some folk think they need to defend a piece of plastic with fairly advanced electronics inside by denigrating a poster.

If you can assist with an answer that helps please just do that.

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

First, there are lots of post about how Voices for the XS were constructed already on the forum. You cna use the search engine on the site to find those.

There was actually a rule to the voicing people to not use more than 4 elements layered at any one time. The Expanded Articulation and 8 elements allows more detailed editing and complexity.  So almost all the Voices in the Xs use the same or less amount of polyphony as the ES.

Take the Piano as an example.  There are 8 elements.  However they are 4 velocity limited Elements, three keybank limited elements and a note off sample.  So there is never more than two note of polyphony ( because it’s a Stereo sample) per note.

There is one 8 Element drawbar organ that uses 8 Elementts at the same time , but that is an exception to the rule because it was pretty cool to show another way that these 8 elements coud be used.

So the simple answer is the polyphony usage on the XS is equal to that of the ES and people have been using the ES for years creating dense arrangements.  Also there are a lot of demos on the site and many of these use pretty dense and complex arrangements. Yamaha has improved the dynamic voice allocation algorithm several times during the course of the Motif’s evolution.

It’s a legitimate question, but something we thought a lot about in developing the XS and have never found an issue.

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

I’m a new and very proud own owner of the XS7, and a long time user of motif’s (ES and classic).  I have experienced what sounds like a polyphony issue by using my old ES sequences on the new XS.  The XS appears to be dropping some notes when I do some cymbal rolls, or use string sounds during a fairly thick sequence.  Could this be due to the “new and improved” sounds using more polyphony on the XS.  Maybe the strings use more, or maybe there are more (overlapping cymbals). I know the “new strings” are tons richer than on my ES.  This only seems to happen when I am playing piano with sustain along with the song, but as formerly stated, I did not hear any problems with the ES.  I don’t want to come across as un-happy with this board, but as with anything new, some adjusting is always necessary.
Thanks for any input!
Dan

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

Thanks for your honest feedback both yamaha US and firstlovedan. Hopefully now you can see why people like me posed this question............

Re: Polyphony, 1 voice can take 80 out of 128?

The topic of polyphony (regardless of which keyboard/manufacturer) has been beaten to death on every synth forum that I belong to, I can’t believe that there is yet ANOTHER discussion of polyphony on the Motif forums. How many fingers are on your hands? How many notes does it take to re-create a symphony orchestra? How many of the compositions done when polyphony has run out sound like anything other than a load of garbage that needs major thinning out of tracks/notes? You’re holding your sustain pedal how long? I think some of you that have so many issues with the sustain pedal and piano sounds should stop using synths and get a real piano, but gee, they only have 88 note polyphony.
Clyde