( this was originaly a reply to a message in other topic, I decided to bring it as a topic because I think it is important for many of us ).


Below please read my reply “*.ins” file published earlier… ( after that the idea came up )
......................................................................................................


It is a great advantage to have user comunication and share the findings and/or results.

I was looking for this .ins file to “fix” a lot of GM files that I have.
-----------------------------------------
GM midi files will live for ever
-----------------------------------------

At the end I think it’s kind of SAD that a great piece of gear like the MOTIF can not reproduce/perform/play a GM file with no modification at all, the GM standard has been out there for many years and I think manufacturers should keep paying attention to it. This way we ( your customers ) can also share the music files, even more, we could “upgrade” our sound quality with new gear with NO need to go back and change all previous sequencing work ( most of the time.. lots of hours )

-----------------------------------------
A GM-Multi idea for the MOTIF
--------------------------------------------

The GM standard stands for the layout of the patches only and NOT for the quality of the sound, so why don’t we have the chance to have a GM Multi ? ...

I really don’t see a reason why Yamaha didn’t do this, I dare to state it because I already tried the following set-up in a Muti:

1.- All parts with MSB/LSB set to 0/0 ( except part 10 with the default GM drum kit 127/0 )

2.- Turn off the receiving of MSB/LSB messages in all parts of the Multi, this way, if the file has a “bank change” that is not valid for MOTIF the multi would ignore it, if the file does NOT have a “bank change” the default GM bank is set in step (1) ( the module knows how to determine the bank ).

.

-----------------------------------------
The problem
-----------------------------------------

I think this idea is very simple and would allow a lot of users to exchange GM MIDI files and use the Motif to make them play, the only reason this is currently NOT working is because the module seems to “ignore a program change message if there is no MSB/LSB message before it “… this is what I see after some testing.

If someone can confirm what I was trying please do and if you have the chance reply your comments.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The solution
( I’d like to convert this posting into a request to Yamaha )
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The change: “Make the MOTIF respond to Program Change MIDI message in a Multi when no MSB/LSB messages came in before, take the current MSB/LSB from the part as a default BANK change” .

Yamaha guys… if you are reading this, could you please try to make the change in the operating system ? I’m sure the following statements are true:

1.- A lot or users would apreciate it just like I would. We would be able to share MUSIC ( our passion, otherwise I would not be writing this ) as we share SOLUTIONS using these forums.

2.- It does not have any secondary effect on current Bank/Program selection method and/or current MOTIF-MIDI-files ( beacuse these are more specific on the Program selection).

3.- I’m a computer programmer and I dare to say that the change in the software if very easy to do ( time and effort ).


and if you do it.... thanks a MILLION in advance for that really great feature you will give to this great module.
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Re: MOTIF - GM files playback ( request to yamaha )

We copied this from a post from Bad Mister which was for the Motif ES.  So as you can see your idea was lready implemented in the Motif ES.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Not all SMF are GM files, and certainly not all GM files are properly prepared. If they are made on a GM module that cannot (does not) have any other sounds other than GM, programmers get lazy and do not put in the proper GM reset command or the proper Bank Select and Program Change data in the file.

To prepare your Motif ES to playback a GM file you will want to call up a blank Song and initialize it for GM use (the Motif ES does not automatically set it self up in GM mode, you have to tell it that is what you want to use...here’s how:
Press SONG (select a blank Song)
Press MIXING
Press Job
Press F1 INIT
Set an ‘x’ in the GM box
Press ENTER
Press INC/YES to execute
This will give you a Multi Mix setup with Piano in each PART (except 10 which will have the GM drum kit)

Play your file, if the preparer put in the Program Changes you will be fine.

But remember while all GM files are SMFs, not all SMFs are GM files.

Once the file is playing back properly on the Motif ES. STORE the MIX. You can transfer the data to the Motif (there are two ways to do this 1) transfer the file as a .mid to a SmartMedia card and load it to the Motif ES. or 2) transfer the data by placing the Motif ES in MULTI RECORD, with MIDI SYNC to MIDI and transfer all 16 tracks to the Motif ES.

In either case once you have the song data in the Motif ES sequencer save it to SmartMedia card in Motif ES format using the ALL SONG save format. This will guarantee that the data is recalled and played back every time.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the Motif Rack ES, the handling of GM files and message was changed and further developed. On page 95 of the manual it descibes how the RACK ES responds to GM System On messages ( the Motif ES did not). 

If the GM files are properly programmed with a GM On message , they should work fine.  If not , you may need to add the following message to the sequence file to get it to set up the RACK ES automatically to be in GM mode.


F0 7E 7F 09 01 F7 ( Hexidecimal).

Re: MOTIF - GM files playback ( request to yamaha

I think I’m trying to do something similar with a Multi in the Rack ES as you describe in the SONG ( I dont have the full keyboard but I’ve been reading some stuff )

The whole point is that even if I save a Multi with a specific setting for MSB/LSB for all parts and the module receives on any channel a program change it changes to other Multi !!! 

Please contact Bad_Mister I described the scenario for him and it actually goes against the MOTIF RACK ES documentation, to make it short the manual says that you have to send a specific MSB/LSB ( 65/63 ) and then a program change with the number of Multi you want to “call” ( Which totally makes sense for me, some day I’ll do it also ) but actually this is not happening, the module receives a program change message with no MSB/LSB and it changes the Multi anyway as a consequence results become unstable/unpredictable.  ( I had a problem with the System Effects also but I still don’t figure out what it is or under what conditions I can reproduce the error ).

( I’m not quite familiar with the private messages in this forum but I’ll try to give you a forward of the message I sent to Bad_Mister in response to his comments of m posting )

Re: MOTIF - GM files playback ( request to yamaha

Actually to continue with this topic we should forget about trying to “fix” the GM file malformation and focus on correcting the way module is changing Multis via MIDI which ( at least ) is NOT what the manual says ( actually what the manual says makes more sense than the actual module response ).


If you end up malforming ( for whatever reason ) an “original” MIDI for the Motif you can end up with the same situation, the Multi changed as a consequence of receiving a Program Change with no preceeding MSB/LSB.

Re: MOTIF - GM files playback ( request to yamaha

If you “malform” a file you can expect to get some kind of weird reaction. Should they start making the gas pedal of a car a brake in case you mis-use it as a means to stop the car? I think NOT. If you use the gas pedal, expect the car to accelerate, if you misconfigure a file expect bad things to happen.

I will look into your situation a bit more next week (my Motif-Rack ES is temporarily on loan).

In the meantime, I suppose you are aware that you can turn Bank Select and/or program change off independently in the Motif Rack ES. If you have a malformed file (no Bank Select messages) simply turn the Bank Select parameter OFF (but leave the Program Change parameter ON. 

Also just a thought. The unit works on running status. If you send a MSB/LSB 63/65 to the Motif Rack ES, the next Program Change it gets will change the Multi. This will remain active until you send it something different. Do a test, Restart your Motif Rack ES and send it program change 74 on MIDI channel 1. It will change the Voice number on Part 01 to the appropriate Voice. Why? Because it received no Bank Select message - my guess (and again I cannot verify this until I get my Motif-Rack ES back) is that you at some point sent a MSB/LSB and never nulled it. Just a guess.

Re: MOTIF - GM files playback ( request to yamaha

Your last 2 paragraphs ... that is exactly what I’m telling you is NOT working !!!!!

The module changes the multi even if the MSB/LSB for a part is disabled !! 

Lets take “GM file” out of this discusion ( I think it’s giving you some “noise” ) and focus on the Multi changed by a Program Change with NO preceding MSB/LSB

Re: MOTIF - GM files playback ( request to yamaha

I’m posting 3 sample files and the results I see ..  I’ll start with a Multi with all MSB/LSB receive switches OFF for all parts, Program Change allowed for all parts, default MSB/LSB = GM drums for channel 10, default MSB/LSB = GM for all other parts.

( this is Multi # 1, I did copy the original Multi # 1 to Multi 128 so I would not “loose it” , I did it after I noticed that every time you switch to Multi mode it goes to # 1, so, I don’t want to switch Multis every time I start ) .


first file .. a song that I received in my web site…

- NO MIDI GM ON
- Bank = “-1” in all tracks ( at least this is what SONAR 4 reports, I think some how it is not initialized, may be the bank data is not even in the file )

Results:

- The module changes to Multi # 002 !!!  ( this is what I don’t like )
- Drums sound like a piano ( I think this was expected given the program 1 in channel 10 ) .

Re: MOTIF - GM files playback ( request to yamaha

second file…

same as attachment # 1 with following changes:

- all Bank numbers changed to ZERO with SONAR

Results:

- the Module does NOT change the Multi ( good !! )
- Drums on channel 10 sound like a piano ( this is NOT expected because I have default GM Drums in part/channel #10 and MSB/LSB changes NOT allowed ).

- System Effects went high !!!  Chorus from 20 to 96 , Reverb from 20 to 64..  ( NOT expected, at least I haven’t studied the MIDI messages used to change system effects return levels )


( I have return level = 20 for both Chorus and Reverb in System Effects saved as part of the Multi )

Re: MOTIF - GM files playback ( request to yamaha

Third file ...  same file with GM ON.

using VanBasco MIDI Player to Yamaha USB port 1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- the drums track sounds like piano, I’ve tried all reset modes in VanBasco ( GM,GS;XG,Windows, even I sent the GM ON from a .sysx file ) the drums here sound like Piano. .. I know this is out of your hands but I’ll research a little bit, VanBasco is used by a lot of people as a MIDI/Karaoke player and as long as there is a MIDI port to send the MIDI messages to ....  it has to work.

/forums/images/icons/frown.gif alt=

.. actually in this case with VanBasco, the Multi was NOT changed but the MSB/LSB in channel 10 were changed to 0,0, this MUST NOT happen becase I have MSB/LSB not allowed for channel 10 in the module, however, it worked from SONAR so....  I need to work a little bit on this.

using SONAR
------------------------

( I have the option to confirm if I want to send the SysX banks when I open the file ... )

If I send the GM ON and playback the file the DRUMS sound like a piano !!! 

If DONT send the SysX ( GM ON ) it sounds OK !! ... this is wierd.





If you see my web page, I have 7000+ files to play with, you can see how interested I am on having this working.  d:)



... I’m going to trace the MIDI message with MIDI-OX tomorrow because its to late again

Re: MOTIF - GM files playback ( request to yamaha

midiclub,

I have a Motif-Rack ES and do not recall what Motif model you are using, although I’m not sure that it matters for the comments that follow.

When you put the Motif-Rack ES into MULTI mode, and I assume the same goes for the Motif Rack, your are NOT putting the device into GM mode.  You are placing the device (Rack, Rack ES) into MULTI mode.

Please appreciate that, when in MULTI mode, the Motif behaves in a certain way.  This is no different than how the Motif behaves in a certain way when it is placed in GM mode.

I think the problem boils down to this, MULTI mode and GM mode are two very different things (as they should be).  It appears that you’re asking for MULTI mode to behave like GM mode.  I’m not sure that I agree, although I understand your frustration.

When the Rack (or Rack ES) is in MULTI mode, MSB=63 LSB=65 are active by default.  This only make sense.  Thus, sending a Program Change on Channel 1 (default Basic Channel) will cause the current MULTI to change to a different MULTI having the same number as the Program Change value received.

The same holds true if you have created a MULTI with all GM Voices and stored this as a user MULTI.  If you call up your “GM MULTI” with the data dial and then send a Program Change, the MULTI will change to a MULTI corresponding to the Program Change value.  Again, the Program Change command is assumed to be just that, a program change and not a voice change.

When you think of it, this default bahaviour makes a lot of sense from a programming point of view.  As for the Motif documentation, I think what is written is clearly being misintrepreted.

Mofif-Rack ES Data page 57, Bank Select, footnote reads, “When only a Program Change (without Bank Select) is received after any of the modes, the corresponding voice in the currently selected Type/Memory is called up.” The way I read that is, after setting the Motif-Rack ES to MULTI mode, a Program Change will change the MULTI program number.  Perhpas the documentation should not have used the term “voice” as it is misleading.

If you want the Motif-Rack ES to respond to a Program Change as if it were a GM voice change, then you MUST do either one of the following:

1) Put the Motif-Rack ES into GM mode by sending a GM System On SYSEX message (F0 7E 7F 09 01 F7) to the Motif-Rack ES.  Every GM MIDI file should have a GM System ON SYSEX message as the first event.  If not, the file is not following accepted GM file creation standards and the results can be unpredictable.

Note that the GM System ON can either be:
a) sent as a seperate SYSEX initialization command before playing back GM MIDI, or
b) placed directly in each MIDI file as the first event in track 1 (channel 1).  Note that Yamaha and Bad_Mister have both pointing this out as a matter of proper GM file creation practise.

2) As an alternate to sending a GM System ON command, you can preceed the Program Change in the SMF with MSB=0 LSB=0, as follows:

01:01:00 MSB=0
01:01:02 LSB=0
01:01:04 Program Change = dd , where dd is a value between 1-128.

Doing this will cause the MULTI to call up the voice as a GM Voice.  However, it is a much better practise to send a GM System On SYSEX command.  Thus, MSB=0 and LSB=0 are set by default.

As a long time user of synthesizers, tone generators, etc., I do not have a problem with the way Yamaha have chosen to program the Motif-Rack ES MULTI feature and do not support the notion that it needs to be changed.

If Yamaha “dropped the ball” on anything, I would say it’s with the PowerOnMode options.  The PowerOnMode function allows the Motif-Rack ES to automatically power-on in either of the following 5 modes:
a) “Multi” => Multi Play Mode defaulting to Multi 001
b) “Voice (USR1)” => Voice Play Mode defaulting to USER 001
c) “Voice (PRE1)” => Voice Play Mode defaulting to PRESET 001
d) “Preformance” => Performance Mode defaulting to USER 001
e) “GM” => GM Voice Play Mode defaulting to GM Voice 001

It’s REALLY unfortunate that Yamaha didn’t provide a sixth PowerOnMode option, “GM Multi”, that would place the Motif-Rack ES into Multi Play Mode defaulting to memory location 001 with “GM System ON” automatically turned on.  This would give you exactly what you’re looking for and, I suspect, would be a very useful feature for the other Motif-Rack ES users who may use their Motif as a sound module/tone generator for GM MIDI file playback.

My $0.02.


Best regards,

Robert

Re: MOTIF - GM files playback ( request to yamaha

Hi

I have the Rack ES.

first of all… lets put the words “General MIDI” out of the discussion, it seems to make “noise” to some users.

second of all… if you have a “malformed” MIDI of course you will have “unexpected results”. Unexpected from the point of view of the original SONG but not unexpected from the point of view of the GEAR…

ie. “may be you did mean to use a Sax on a channel but the synth plays maracas because of the BANKS and Programs organization”

..that’s OK , but if you “read” the synth it’s going to play maracas and the result is that it changes the Multi ( or it tweaks the sound, or it changes from Multi to Performace or any other-than-expected thing happens ) thats a different story.


>>>>>>>>>>><
When the Rack (or Rack ES) is in MULTI mode, MSB=63 LSB=65 are active by default. This only make sense. Thus, sending a Program Change on Channel 1 (default Basic Channel) will cause the current MULTI to change to a different MULTI having the same number as the Program Change value received.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

default MSB/LSB ???  ( I didn’t see it in the manual, may be I have to read it again )

if you have a Multi saved there are 16 parts in it with different MSB/LSB, channels can be different than part numbers, the MSB/LSB in the Multi are saved by part not by channel.

so 63/65 is default.....

- For what part number ?  part 1 ? 
- And what if you have a different MSB/LSB + a predefined voice in part 1 ... is it useless because the 63/65 has a higher priority ?? ( I don’t think so )
- Are you saying there is a MSB/LSB combination “active” somewhere on a higher-than-a-part level that controls the MO settings “outside” the Multi ? .. if this is the case, don’t you think it should be the other way arround ? ... I see the Multi as an “environment” to work with to make music,so.. changing to a different environment should be an “exception” ( a valid request but not quite as common as the voices within the current environment ).


May be for Voice and Performance mode the Program Change changing “the voice” makes sense to change the one-a-time voice selection or the one-a-time combination of parts ( layers, splits,etc ) in one Performance, at the end, this is oriented to be used from “one source” of MIDI data , the controller keyboard ( I can not imagine other scenario, even if it is possible technically )

Multi mode you can have “multiple sources” of midi data… what if I use the module and a MIDI merge adapter to use up to 16 keyboards on stage/studio every one using a channel to play “within the environment” of a Multi with specific effect settings for chours and reverb( may be triggering apreggios ) and every one from his/her controller keyboard having the chance to change the “voice” for a channel ??  ( a little bit exagerated for the matter of the example, but this is a real posiblity, at least technically it has to be posible )… and then one of the guys sends a program change and the whole thing is screwed up because the Multi was changed !!!… Another scenario could be something like you playing the controller keyboard on one channel and having “the band” recorded in a MIDI file “playing with you”.  ( Am I too crazy ?  may be I’m still dreaming, I’ve been looking for this for many years, however, given the specs of gear these days I think it’s comming closer.... good sound quality, 128 poliphony, efects, apreggios, MIDI files,laptops, etc… ).


I haven’t confirmed this but I think if you send the Program Change on ANY channel would change the Multi… I’ll try it tonight.

If this is the case ( Prog Change only on channel 1 to change the Multi ) then a solution could be NOT USING channel 1 when sequencing.

Re: MOTIF - GM files playback ( request to yamaha

midiclub,


>>>>>>>>>>>>>
first of all… lets put the words “General MIDI” out of the discussion, it seems to make “noise” to some users
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Okay then...if "General MIDI" file is an abstract concept for MIDI users, let's call them "generic" MIDI files.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>
second of all… if you have a “malformed” MIDI of course you will have “unexpected results”. Unexpected from the point of view of the original SONG but not unexpected from the point of view of the GEAR…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I would say that a generic MIDI file that does not have a GM System ON SYSEX command as the first event is malformed.  Tone generators need to be told exactly how to behave, if only as a matter of good programming practice.

I’m compelled to say that if you wanted a general purpose tone generator for playback of generic MIDI files, then perhaps the Motif Rack-ES was not the “best” choice for your needs.  Perhaps the vast majority will differ with me on this point?

Yamaha have other tone generators that are specifically designed for more universal application.  For example, my Yamaha MU2000 tone generator provides support for the following MIDI file formats: GM1, GM2, TG300B, C/M, GS (limited) and XG (extensive).  Wow!  In some ways, I wish my Motif-Rack ES provided similar support.

Unfortunately, I have a large collection of (mostly XG) MIDI files amassed over many years of sequencing that need to be extensively modified to take full advantage of the Motif’s “horsepower”.  Thus, I do understand your frustration.  I suppose that I too could argue that Yamaha have abandoned their loyal XG users by not designing the Motif around Yamaha’s XG format.  Then again, Roland users could also argue that their GS MIDI files don’t play back properly on the Motif either.  Fortunately, I fully knew the issues I would face with the Motif-Rack ES before purchasing it, but still wanted a Rack ES for the up-to-date sounds.

I think it’s important to appreciate the Rack and Rack-ES are outgrowths of the Motif synthesizer.  As such, the Rack versions have naturally inherited a lot of the original Motif environment, including the apparent lack of support for playback of “generic” MIDI files.  Is it so unreasonable for the Motif synthesizer to have it’s own environment?  The alternative, designing the Motif as a universal MIDI tone generator would only serve to make it more awkward to use in a lot of cases.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>
default MSB/LSB ??? ( I didn’t see it in the manual, may be I have to read it again)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

You're partially right about this.  The manual does not explicitly point out that while in Muti mode, you're actually using an exclusive Motif environment that has various default settings that may be less than ideal for some purposes.  What MSB and LSB values should the Motif assume when in Multi mode? (More on this later.) Should users playing back Motif MIDI files be forced to use MSB/LSB Bank Change commands followed by a Program Change to call up Motif Voices while not requiring the same of users playing back generic MIDI files?

FWIW, Motif-Rack ES Owner's Manual, page 38 states:
TIP: Assigning Voices to the Parts from a Computer -
You can use a computer to select Voices to be assigned to the Parts by specifying appropriate MIDI messages.  If you transmit the relevant Bank Select MSB/LSB and Program Change messages to the MOTIF-RACK ES, the Part Voice corresponding to the MIDI channel of these messages can be changed.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And what if you have a different MSB/LSB + a predefined voice in part 1 ... is it useless because the 63/65 has a higher priority?? (I don’t think so )
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

No, that's not the way MSB and LSB Bank changes work.  If you issue a proper Bank Change followed by a Program Change, the Motif will always do exactly what you want it to do while in Multi mode.  Your Bank Change will always supersede a previous Bank Change, including the default MSB=63 LSB=65.  Like I said in an earlier post, while in Multi mode, MSB=0 LSB=0 followed by a Program Change will ALWAYS call up the GM patch you specify.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Are you saying there is a MSB/LSB combination “active” somewhere on a higher-than-a-part level that controls the MO settings “outside” the Multi ?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Right again.  Two primary classes of MIDI message exist: those that relate to specific MIDI channels (channel messages) and those that relate to the system as a whole (system messages).  These messages are typically prioritized as follows:
1) Reset
2) System exclusive
3) System real-time
4) System common
5) Channel messages
For info on the MIDI "Basic Channel" (usually the lowest MIDI channel to which the device is set to respond), see [url=http://www.philrees.co.uk/articles/midimode.htm]http://www.philrees.co.uk/articles/midimode.htm [/url]


>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I see the Multi as an “environment” to work with to make music,so.. changing to a different environment should be an “exception” ( a valid request but not quite as common as the voices within the current environment
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Yes, I agree.  When using the Multi mode, a better scheme would have been for the Motif to activate the appropriate Voice Bank (MSB & LSB) on EACH part corresponding to the Voice Bank the part was saved with.  Thus, rogue Program Changes (i.e., not preceeded by a proper Bank change) would cause voice changes within the stored (default) Voice Bank until explicitly changed by a different Bank change message.



Regards,

Robert