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Viewing topic "My Review of 300K Piano"

     
Posted on: July 25, 2002 @ 03:44 PM
bvogel
Total Posts:  0
Joined  07-26-2002
status: Newcomer

Let me quantify this review by saying, I am not a programmer nor am I an accomplished pianist. I ordered the CD on Friday and received it the very next Monday. 300k sent an email to me on Friday letting me know it was on the way and what to expect. The CD arrived with some basic instructions; most of it was already posted on Motifator. There are 4 variations on this piano now. Some may find this a little confusing but to start with just load 32ALLVOI.W2V and 32ALLVOI.W3V these 2 files will get you all 4 variations of the piano. Then you can demo and see which one you like but be prepared for a LOOONGGGG load time. I felt like Piano1 is WAY to low in gain to be usable, I know I can crank it up but I don’t want to, I don’t have to do that with any of my other sounds. Piano2 has much more gain, Piano 1-2 seem to sound alike just different gain settings. Piano 3-4 sounds very similar. Piano 3-4 was the most playable. The samples seem very even and precise across the keyboard. The samples were very clean and in tune to my ears. I personally did not care for any of these pianos. They all have a bell quality that I just don’t care for. Now, I think it may be just that is the sound of a Steinway and keep in mind I am a person who once fell in love with a Young Chang Baby Grand and a Kawai Spinet. I think the one thing that really attracts me to Yamaha Keyboards and especially the Mo8 is what a Keyboard
Magazine writer once said “The finger-to-music connection” That sensation is clearly missing in all 4 of these pianos. Maybe it’s the voicing or the samples I really don’t know but every time I played those pianos and went back to the Motif’s Power Grand I could just feel the difference, the Motif 8’s Power Grand feels like a real instrument. Another very strange thing about all 4 pianos is when you hold a key down and let it decay it never fully dies out, you can hear a very faint sound that seems to last forever or as long as I cared to hold the key down. I personally would not have bought this piano if I could have played it first although I believe 300k is sincere about his product and his customer service has been up to par. This piano does NOT blow the Motif’s Power Grand away and it only makes me more excited about the prospect of a Triple Strike S700 on a PLG. To some it up, some may love it and some may hate it you be the judge. I’m going to hope and prey Yamaha comes through for us with a piano fitting to the name Yamaha. If they don’t the great hunt will continue. Brian

Here is the files names as they appeared on my CD

All 4 variations Piano 1 - 4
32ALLVOI.W2V Voice Data
32ALLVOI.W3V Sample Data

Original Piano
32MB300K.W2V Voice Data
32MB300K.W3V Sample Data

Piano 2-4
32MBPIAN.W2W Voice Data
32MBPIAN.W3W Sample Data

2 Demo’s and a Readme

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Posted on: July 26, 2002 @ 07:33 PM
clint
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Joined  07-26-2002
status: Newcomer

Re: My Review of 300K Piano

I got the 300k piano here. The first one is indeed useless! The volumes are WAY too low and unusuable. The 4th one is my favorite but it doesnt show expression enough. Its just dang right as if someone is playing the piano hard and softer you play, thelower the volume gets but thats not what you want because it sounds like you’re still playing hard! Maybe its because I’m using 61 keys.

I emailed them and they suggested I use a preset piano and sub out the wav with their samples and......AWESOME!!! Now it sounds GREAT! It actually sounds like it should!!! I still may need to tweak it a little but it sounds MUCH MUCH more useable than straight off the CD. I used PowerGrand and sub the wavs with the 32meg sample wavs. Try it! You’ll have to up the gain on the sample in each keybank (which is a ROYAL PAIN) to 0db to get it to sound up to volume standards but I must tell you its well worth it! I just swapped the standard pianos I’ve been using with the 32meg sample in a couple songs I did and there is a HUGE difference! Its a shame it took some labor to get it sounding good though.

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Posted on: July 26, 2002 @ 07:59 PM
Jimstang
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Joined  07-25-2002
status: Guru

Re: My Review of 300K Piano

Maybe you can save THAT voice and give it to other 300K piano owners and start a collection of THERE voices :)

Jimstang

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Posted on: July 26, 2002 @ 08:17 PM
synthbear
Total Posts:  0
Joined  07-22-2003
status: Newcomer

copyright time?

Jimstang or Dave Polich:

Would that be legal “ripping”?  How do you feel about that 300K?

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Posted on: July 27, 2002 @ 07:54 AM
Yamaha_US
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Joined  07-19-2002
status: Guru

Re: copyright time?

As long as you purchase the original samples from 300k it should be fine to make some voices that use it. 

We had 300K over at the Yamaha office before NAMM to test the piano and see if we could offer our help in anyway.

One other thing we noticed is that the 300K piano is a little out of tune with the Motif’s internal PCM.  So we are going to try to work on tuning it to Motif’s internal sounds, creating a few new voices and then send those to 300K so he can include them in the all file he sends people.  It’s also possible to increase the volume level with some programming tricks which we will also try to do.

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Posted on: July 27, 2002 @ 09:31 AM
clint
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Joined  07-26-2002
status: Newcomer

Re: copyright time?

How can you load a new voice without its sample data?

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Posted on: July 27, 2002 @ 10:36 PM
Jimstang
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Joined  07-25-2002
status: Guru

Re: copyright time?

I was not talking about Ripping off the samples.

I was talking about people with the Sample making new voices using the same samples in different ways.

Clint:  You can’t load a voice without the sample info.

I don’t own the 300K piano yet (money is tight, Water heater broke, 2 kids with broken glasses Ect.) but I plan on buying it.

Jim

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Posted on: July 28, 2002 @ 01:43 AM
300K
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Joined  08-17-2002
status: Newcomer

Re: copyright time?

Yamaha U.S. and Jim are exactly right.  Not only should clients feel free to adjust the voice parameters, including the “feel” of the keys—they are encouraged to do so.  Go ahead and share the result—that’s great.  (But this is much different than copying our samples and giving them away.)

We have two basic technologies in play here.  First, there are the samples of the piano.  There’s a lot of work and money tied up in developing those (which is why we copyrighted all of them).  Then there’s the technology whereby the player interfaces with the samples.  This involves how the keys respond to velocity and other touch parameters, but there is much more such as how MOTIF will “play” the samples.  There’s a lot of room for adjustment here.

Believe me, I have played some of the best pianos in the world.  Some of these instruments are just breathtaking.  Still, I have seen other musicians say they don’t even like those pianos at all.  Pianos are very subjective and there is no way we could please everyone, with a PRESET and we know that.  But we also know that given 32MB of outstanding piano samples MOTIF can implement those samples in thousands of different ways.  Consequently, in the very rare event you are not thrilled with the piano right “out of the box” as was the case with Clint, don’t worry ... you just need to adjust it to suit your taste. 

Anyone who comes up with a new set of voice parameters can save them as an “all voice without waveform” file.  That’s MOTIF’s file that has the extension of .W2E It would be nice if there was a file format that would just save one “voice” rather than all of them (and maybe there is).  Regardless, the W2E files are small enough that they can be emailed between users.  These files do not contain our copyrighted samples, and any attempt to mail a file that did would bring down many mail servers, but the .W2E file should get through OK.

If clients want to trade .W2E files all they have to do is to first load the original piano into MO and then load in the .W2E file (after you save ALL of your work in MOTIF’s user memory in case something unexpected happens).

By the way, all 4 pianos on our current CD were “tweaked” while being monitored on a set of $60,000.00 “reference standard” speakers.  The pianos sound very good.  Still, we realize some people will end up playing the pianos through a guitar amp or maybe a public address system or so on.  Naturally, the piano can sound only as good as the system it is being played through (but then you can “tweak” the piano for the playback system in order to help things.)

Yamaha brought up an interesting point which is that their piano is tuned differently than ours, not by much but there is a difference.  (In case you don’t know this take note that there are countless ways to tune a piano.  For example, many concert pianists will advise their tuner to maximize the tuning for the key signature they will be focusing on for the specific concert that night.)

I want to spend some time on this topic because I think it is important.  There are many skills that have to be learned to tune a piano accurately, but there are just three basic parts to each tuning. The first, and the most important from a Tuner’s point of view, is called “Setting the Temperment”. This is the foundation on which the rest of the tuning is built, and the hardest part to master.  It is also rather difficult to explain.
The musical scale that western ears have become accustomed to, and upon which the tuning of a piano is based, consists of twelve notes: C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, and B. This arrangement had been invented and used long before any of the composers we know of had been born. So, when they did get here, they inherited a system of music that they were forced to use, even though it has a few nasty little problems. The main problem has its root in what is called “Harmonics”. If you play a string, and then divide it in half by placing your finger on the middle of the string (what physicists call “the node"), you would hear a note one octave higher than the first note, which is called the “Fundamental”. (If you play middle C on a piano, and the C above it on a piano that is in tune, that is an octave.). If you then divide that half in half again, you would hear a ‘Perfect Fifth’ above the Octave. (Like playing C and the G above it). If you continued to subdivide the string in this manner you would hear a rather mysterious thing: a note two octaves higher, then a third (C to E) above that. Then the fifth, then a minor 7th (C to A#), then all the diatonic notes (like all the white keys), and then every single note. If you could go even further you would hear microtones, which are NOT part of the western scale, but which are a part of the music of other cultures.
This is all fine and dandy, EXCEPT for a problem known as the “Pythagorean Comma”.  The first interval of a perfect fifth in harmonics is “pure”, that is to say, it does not have any warble or vibrato, called “beats”, when the two notes, the Fundamental and the fifth, are played together. All the intervals after this are also “pure” with the note previous to it, but they grow INCREASINGLY sharp of the Fundamental to the point that the Octaves are NOT “pure” with each other. They become sharp because of the “Comma”, which is a microtone that is missing in our western scale.
So, in effect, we actually squeeze what are harmonically THIRTEEN notes into our twelve-note scale. This is called “tempering” the scale, and the way in which we squeeze it is called the “Temperment”. When there were no keyboard instruments, this was not a big problem.
Instrumentalists and singers learned to tune each note as they played or sang, so that they would be pure to any other notes played or sung with them. Since pianos and other keyboard instruments cannot be retuned on the fly, dealing with this became a problem that no one has really been able to solve completely.
Before J.S. Bach’s time, Harpsichordists dealt with the problem of Temperment by constantly tuning. They would play a piece in say, E flat, and then re-tune the instrument to play in a different key, like A or D.  Large pipe organs of the time would have different temperments in separate sets of pipes, called “ranks”. To play in a different key, you would change ranks. This method of changing temperments was not only awkward, but STILL resulted in some intervals sounding horribly out of tune.
The problem was eventually “solved”, during Bach’s lifetime.  Someone figured out how to temper the scale in an equal manner so that whatever key you chose, it would be equally in (out of?) tune. To demonstrate this new method of tuning, Bach wrote two preludes and fugues for every key, and called the collection “Das Wohltemperierte Klavier”, “The Well Tempered Keyboard”. The “Equal Temperment” is now the standard tuning in every modern keyboard instrument.  (But notice that MOTIF has many optional temperments that you can apply, if you please.)
This “Equal Temperment” theory is pretty well accepted with relatively few people knowing that it doesn’t actually work.  You see pianos such as Steinway have their own “scale” and it is their unique scale that makes a Steinway sound like a Steinway.  These “scales” are inconsistent with “Equal Temperment” and a truly great tuner will recognize the scale he is working with and tune the piano to take advantage of it—instead of “fighting” with it.  The result is sort of a Quasi Equal Temperment.
Alright then, our goal was to produce a VERY real sounding piano for MOTIF.  To reach this goal we sampled a real Steinway with REAL world tuning.  Once recorded, we could have changed the tuning of the piano samples to make them conform with mathematical ideas but we decided to go with the tuner’s judgment.  We were able to do this because we do not make hundreds, if not thousands, of different electronic musical instruments as does Yamaha.  Our piano has to sound great and stand on its own merits but it doesn’t have to exactly “match” what Roland or Korg or anyone else has out there.  (MOTIF enables users to change both the fine and coarse tuning so you can do this if you want to, but I don’t recommend it.)
We are grateful for Yamaha’s generous offer to adjust our samples to match Yamaha’s choice of frequencies and we are eager to hear the result.  If this can be embodied in a .W2E file, then we will probably email the new file to existing clients so they will have the option of using the alternative temperment.  My initial impression, however, is that even the extremely slight change away from what the original tuner decided on may yield a sound that is not optimal for the particular Steinway (semi) Concert Grand we used.  The piano sounds gorgeous the way the tuner tuned it.  Is that something that should be changed?  On the other hand, we are talking about a few “cents” in change.  That’s almost nothing.  Perhaps any difference will be imperceptible.
One thing seems clear:  32MB Piano users will be getting more pianos than they expected!
Mark

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Posted on: July 28, 2002 @ 07:42 AM
Yamaha_US
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Total Posts:  2540
Joined  07-19-2002
status: Guru

Temperment

Motif has the ability to select whether you use a tempered tuning or pure scale tunings. If you go to Utiltity Mode you can select Pure major and Pure minor tunings and what key those pure tunings are in.

This only works of course if the original samples are tuned the same way the other samples in Motif are tuned.

The 300K piano sounds fine by its itself, but we just wanted to point out that if you try layer it with internal Motif samples or use the scale tunings features of Motif you may hear beating. 

The single cycle synth waves in Motif are mathematically calculated and tuned so it is usually good to use those as a tuning reference to tune samples to the Motif stretch tuning.  Then the other tuning features like the pure major tuning in Utiltity will work properly.

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Posted on: July 28, 2002 @ 09:33 PM
synthbear
Total Posts:  0
Joined  07-22-2003
status: Newcomer

Jimstang

Jimstang:

Sorry, Jim.  I misunderstood your posting.  You said, “give it to other 300K owners....” .  I had it in my head you meant “selling” it to other owners and I thought that might have something to do with copyrighting or ripping.  So, I was simply inquiring.  Now, about 300K’s short novel....

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